How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

[Cirdan]

If there is no video of the technique etc on You Tube it therefore does not exist!

Nothing on youtube, damn it is over. We must send Wolverine back in time to add throws to karate or all is lost like in that movie Days of Future Past! The Age of Hanzou is here.

 

[K-man]

I was determined to leave others to comment on the crap being spouted in this thread but it just gets worse. Hanzou, you keep stating obvious inaccuracies, at best, or untruths, if you want to call a spade a spade, as facts.

I disagree. I'm certainly open to other people's perspectives, ...

Really? You could have fooled me.

Hell, based on what you said above, there's almost as many throws in Shotokan, Goju, and TKD as there are in Kodokan Judo. In all seriousness, where would one have time to teach all of that on top of all the stances, strikes, and katas in any given form of Karate?

Perhaps that's the first part of your karate training as a junior was lacking and again demonstrates your total lack of understanding of a martial art in which you are claiming to be an expert based on zero knowledge. It could also demonstrate that your instructor also had limited knowledge of karate. In terms of recognised judo throws only a small number occur in Goju, probably about 10. Most of those are sweeps or reaps with a couple of hip throws . These are all in the kata so practising the kata means you are practising throws and takedowns. The fact that you totally ignored the application of kata and dismissed kata as useless pretty much ensured your karate training was a total waste of time apart from the sport sparring aspect of it it but I am pretty much restating what you said in another post when you mentioned leaving karate training was the best thing you did.

To compound this, I can pull up various vids of Karate or TKD exponents free sparring, and none of them are performing any throws or takedowns whatsoever. You might see someone catch a leg and sweep, or perform a sloppy clinch throw, but certainly nothing on the level to indicate they have a high level of grappling experience, which is exactly the argument you're making above.

Listen, I don't doubt that you went to some random dojos and learned 70+ grappling techniques, but to say that that is somehow the norm is a dubious argument at best.

You can pull up all the competition free sparring you like and you won't see many locks holds or takedowns because karate was not developed for that sort of sparring. That is a sporting aspect started in Japan that has ignored a large part of basic karate teaching.

And again you are exaggerating. Nobody is claiming is claiming 70+ grappling techniques.

Everything…? Methinks you might not have as deep an understanding as you believe…

Never a truer word spoken.

But the real issue here is that you're applying false and incredibly narrow definitions to everything in this thread… you're only applying a flawed and inaccurate dictionary definition of "martial arts"… same with "fight"… you're ignoring martial arts that you don't see the connection with (such as Iaido above, stating that "we had already determined it wasn't a martial art")… and now you're saying that you only want to deal with mainstream modern arts that you think match what you think martial arts are.

This isn't an issue of semantics, it's an issue of a complete lack of depth in understanding (which isn't a problem in itself) combined with a complete inability or unwillingness to improve upon that state of affairs (which is a problem if you're wanting to discuss these ideas). Seriously, you asked people who train in arts where the idea of "fighting" isn't so important to explain that to you… and are fighting against every answer you get.

This is so true I think you need to read it again.

This is on you-tube, so you know it's real… oh, but ignore the title… this isn't from Judo…

.

Now this is an interesting clip. I hope, Hanzou, that you watched it carefully. It demonstrates the karateka's knowledge of and the footwork from the stances you dismissed as irrelevant. He uses Sanchin dachi in the simple takedowns, he is stepping out into Zenkutsu dachi and transitioning into Shiko dachi in some of the others. This is exactly what is taught in basic Goju. Absolutely nothing to do with judo and absolutely 'pure' Goju Ryu.

Quick question… what do you think grappling is?

Another good question it I doubt we'll get a detailed answer.

Where has the idea of "pure Karate grappling" come from? Do you simply invent what you think people are saying, and complain that it's not true?

Sadly, this is definitely the case.


Now let's address where again you misquoted me with the word 'pure'.

Grappling within Karate that isn't derived from cross-training.

The video posted by Chris is basic stances. 'Pure' karate. The kata are full of locks holds and takedowns. Again, 'pure' karate.

You don't even understand the reasons why people cross train. I didn't start Aikido to learn Aikido. I started Aikido to better understand the applications within my Goju. I studied striking from a Shotokan guy to make my strikes in Goju more powerful. I studied Systema to better understand how to absorb punches and move in the most economical way within my karate. Certainly I learned a little from BJJ that wasn't in Goju, but that was so I could escape from a grappler, not to compete with one.

It is also extremely difficult to control a person's entire body with one arm.

What crap! I'm sure even you have applied an arm bar. The same is true of a properly applied wrist lock.

You seriously don't see how those attributes don't improve your karate techniques?

Conditioning increases your endurance, coordination, flexibility, and toughness. All of which is important in performing technique.

Proper etiquette, Meditation, general cleanliness, respect, etc. is simply aspects of discipline and self control. Again, important parts of becoming a better fighter. You can look at any sports team or athlete who doesn't have good discipline or self control, and they tend to be pretty terrible at their sport because the lack of self control and discipline seeps into your actual ability to perform.

Isn't it irony? You can see the great benefit of these things within karate that, in your humble opinion, improve karate technique but dismiss kata as a waste of time.

So..... they're almost unheard of in what you trained in, yet the Bjj strikes you've seen were unimpressive to you?

Okay.... So are we in agreement that there IS striking in Bjj?

If you observe the Gracies in action vids, there's plenty of striking being done by the Gracies and their students. Is it pretty? No. Is it effective? Yes.

More irony. Striking is now a big part of BJJ, despite being rarely seen, but striking doesn't exist in Aikido and grappling isn't a big part of karate.

Interestingly, I've done both Karate and Judo. I have a black belt in Shotokan, and I took Judo briefly in college, and I continue to take Judo since its offered at my Bjj school. The first time I learned a hip throw was in Judo. The second time I learned hip throws was in Bjj. I never learned hip throws or any throws for that matter, in Karate.

Sadly, we've already established that you learned little from your karate training, just as you have learned nothing from other people's experience here on MT.

I certainly don't doubt that there are Karate systems out there that teach the hip throw. In my neck of the woods, they don't unless the instructor has cross-trained. You kind of see it in that video where one Karateka is constantly utilizing throws while the other is completely dumbfounded by it and has no way to counter them. That (along with the title and description of the vid) indicates that the Karateka doing the throws had cross-trained in Judo either on his own or via his instructor.

Personally I don't classify these takedowns as throws but I'm happy for you to call them that. If you were a first time student in my dojo I would show you each of those takedowns to demonstrate the application of the basic stances you learn from day 1. Another irony. A karateka who is being outclassed is normal but a karateka using basic training must have learned it elsewhere

 

[Cirdan]

Come on, we all knew where this thread was headed the moment we read the OP. Hanzou`s intent was crystal clear and I won`t be overly civil to pretend I did not know he would spout hundereds of lines of unrefined BS all over again. It is not the season for fertilizing the fields so maybe it is time to say the circus has gone on long enough.

 

[elder999]

Come on, we all knew where this thread was headed the moment we read the OP. Hanzou`s intent was crystal clear and I won`t be overly civil to pretend I did not know he would spout hundereds of lines of unrefined BS all over again. It is not the season for fertilizing the fields so maybe it is time to say the circus has gone on long enough.

Careful there-the black belt in "Shotokan," Grandmaster of kibordeaux will get ya!

I mean, this is Hanzou Here's a video from the kibordeaux dojo!

 

[K-man]

That's why I elected to pull out of the discussion several pages back ... but when you read so much crap spouted as fact ...

Where the hell is my BS emoticon?

 

[Tez3]

Sooo, is it down the pub now guys as it's time to talk of other things such as cabbages and kings?

Where's my rofl emoticon?

 

[K-man]

Careful there-the black belt in "Shotokan," Grandmaster of kibordeaux will get ya!

I mean, this is Hanzou Here's a video from the kibordeaux dojo!

Yeah, well it's obvious why Hanzou lost this fight. It didn't go to the ground so he had to rely on the skills he learned from his childhood in Shotokan and didn't get a chance to grapple.

 

[K-man]

Sooo, is it down the pub now guys as it's time to talk of other things such as cabbages and kings?

Where's my rofl emoticon?

Please have one for me.

No, please have a couple of double scotches. I need it after reading some of this stuff!

 

[Hanzou]

Wado Ryu is karate absolutely no doubt, not a hybrid. Ohtsuka Sensei just understood the grappling and takedowns that were already in karate better than some other masters. He was a Jujutsu master so had the interest to use the techniques already found in karate, he didn't add them.

So you're saying that Ohtsuka's Jujutsu background had no impact on how he developed or taught Wado Ryu whatsoever?

 

[Cirdan]

Scotch sounds good, with ice please it chills BS in the air and makes it go away.

Argh more of it, a triple please!.

 

[elder999]

So you're saying that Ohtsuka's Jujutsu background had no impact on how he taught Wado Ryu whatsoever?

No, we're saying that we're no longer taking anything you have to say seriously.

Once you bring out the ridiculous, I bring on the ridicule!

Here's some more footage of Hanzou, from the grounds of the ki-bor do dojo.

I mean, it's gotta be real-it's on youtube, right?

 

[Tez3]

So you're saying that Ohtsuka's Jujutsu background had no impact on how he developed or taught Wado Ryu whatsoever?

No dear I am not, I wrote what I wrote and will not unwrite just because you cannot understand what I wrote.

 

[Cirdan]

There is room for everybody here Hanzou but if you put on the jester`s cap with bells and all while telling tall tales and playing a merry tune at some point we will reward your fine performance with a good laugh. Cheers!

 

[Hanzou]

Perhaps that's the first part of your karate training as a junior was lacking and again demonstrates your total lack of understanding of a martial art in which you are claiming to be an expert based on zero knowledge. It could also demonstrate that your instructor also had limited knowledge of karate. In terms of recognised judo throws only a small number occur in Goju, probably about 10. Most of those are sweeps or reaps with a couple of hip throws . These are all in the kata so practising the kata means you are practising throws and takedowns. The fact that you totally ignored the application of kata and dismissed kata as useless pretty much ensured your karate training was a total waste of time apart from the sport sparring aspect of it it but I am pretty much restating what you said in another post when you mentioned leaving karate training was the best thing you did.

Well for starters I never claimed to be an expert in Karate. Further, I was responding to the notion that there were 70+ grappling abilities within Karate and TKD. If all of that grappling is "hidden" in the kata, I'm not surprised that its almost nonexistent in modern karate. Its pretty hard teaching grappling from a kata.

You can pull up all the competition free sparring you like and you won't see many locks holds or takedowns because karate was not developed for that sort of sparring. That is a sporting aspect started in Japan that has ignored a large part of basic karate teaching.

Pretty hard to learn grappling without sparring as well.

And again you are exaggerating. Nobody is claiming is claiming 70+ grappling techniques.

Scroll up, that's exactly the numbers Danny T mentioned.

More irony. Striking is now a big part of BJJ, despite being rarely seen, but striking doesn't exist in Aikido and grappling isn't a big part of karate.

Most people's first experience with Bjj was in the UFC. Royce did plenty of striking in that. Same applies to the Gracie in Action films. Again, plenty of striking. There's also this;

Enjoy.

 

[Cirdan]

I guess some of us LEARNED mawatte on the first day in ka-rotty, while others went trough the motions. But oh it is so HIDDEN!

Another scotch please, extra ice!

 

[Hanzou]

No dear I am not, I wrote what I wrote and will not unwrite just because you cannot understand what I wrote.

So you contradicted yourself.

Interesting.

 

[K-man]

So you're saying that Ohtsuka's Jujutsu background had no impact on how he developed or taught Wado Ryu whatsoever?

Perhaps if you even read a little of the history of Wado Ryu you wouldn't run off from the lip as much. Otsuka took his knowledge of Shotokan and after training with the Okinawan karate guys, Choki Motobu and Kenwa Mabuni (both basically Shorin Ryu) recognised that a lot of the basic Okinawan karate was missing from Shotokan. As a top jujutsu man he was able to put back into his karate what he recognised was missing from Shotokan and that he had seen in Shorin Ryu. Nothing more or less than what is intrinsically Okinawan Karate.

 

[K-man]

So you contradicted yourself.

Interesting.

No. As Tez explained, you just don't understand! I have trouble believing that someone with even limited knowledge of the English language could be so obtuse so I can only conclude that you are deliberately ignoring what you are being told.

 

[elder999]

Perhaps if you even read a little of the history of Wado Ryu you wouldn't run off from the lip as much. Otsuka took his knowledge of Shotokan and after training with the Okinawan karate guys, Choki Motobu and Kenwa Mabuni (both basically Shorin Ryu) recognised that a lot of the basic Okinawan karate was missing from Shotokan. As a top jujutsu man he was able to put back into his karate what he recognised was missing from Shotokan and that he had seen in Shorin Ryu. Nothing more or less than what is intrinsically Okinawan Karate.

I'm gonna have to disagree here.

Ohtsuka was menkyo kaiden in Shindo Yoshin Ryu, before he studied with Funakoshi. That's a fact.

And now, for another real youtube video from Hanzou's kiboredo dojo.

 

[Tez3]

So you contradicted yourself.

Interesting.

No. You didn't understand what I said, so no I didn't contradict myself . In fact you don't actually read and comprehend what people write. I said it was his interest in and knowledge of Jujutsu that enabled him to use it in his style but of course that's not want you want to read. You want an argument, you want to be right all the time in your assertions and will actually twist people's words to make them fit what you think. If you aren't going to be honest when discussing things there's little point in discussing anything with you is there?
While you are entitled to your own opinions you are not entitled to your own facts.