I was determined to leave others to comment on the crap being spouted in this thread but it just gets worse.
Hanzou, you keep stating obvious inaccuracies, at best, or untruths, if you want to call a spade a spade, as facts.
I disagree. I'm certainly open to other people's perspectives, ...
Really? You could have fooled me.
Hell, based on what you said above, there's almost as many throws in Shotokan, Goju, and TKD as there are in Kodokan Judo. In all seriousness, where would one have time to teach all of that on top of all the stances, strikes, and katas in any given form of Karate?
Perhaps that's the first part of your karate training as a junior was lacking and again demonstrates your total lack of understanding of a martial art in which you are claiming to be an expert based on zero knowledge. It could also demonstrate that your instructor also had limited knowledge of karate. In terms of recognised judo throws only a small number occur in Goju, probably about 10. Most of those are sweeps or reaps with a couple of hip throws . These are all in the kata so practising the kata means you are practising throws and takedowns. The fact that you totally ignored the application of kata and dismissed kata as useless pretty much ensured your karate training was a total waste of time apart from the sport sparring aspect of it it but I am pretty much restating what you said in another post when you mentioned leaving karate training was the best thing you did.
To compound this, I can pull up various vids of Karate or TKD exponents free sparring, and none of them are performing any throws or takedowns whatsoever. You might see someone catch a leg and sweep, or perform a sloppy clinch throw, but certainly nothing on the level to indicate they have a high level of grappling experience, which is exactly the argument you're making above.
Listen, I don't doubt that you went to some random dojos and learned 70+ grappling techniques, but to say that that is somehow the norm is a dubious argument at best.
You can pull up all the competition free sparring you like and you won't see many locks holds or takedowns because karate was not developed for that sort of sparring. That is a sporting aspect started in Japan that has ignored a large part of basic karate teaching.
And again you are exaggerating. Nobody is claiming is claiming 70+ grappling techniques.
Everything…? Methinks you might not have as deep an understanding as you believe…
Never a truer word spoken.
But the real issue here is that you're applying false and incredibly narrow definitions to everything in this thread… you're only applying a flawed and inaccurate dictionary definition of "martial arts"… same with "fight"… you're ignoring martial arts that you don't see the connection with (such as Iaido above, stating that "we had already determined it wasn't a martial art")… and now you're saying that you only want to deal with mainstream modern arts that you think match what you think martial arts are.
This isn't an issue of semantics, it's an issue of a complete lack of depth in understanding (which isn't a problem in itself) combined with a complete inability or unwillingness to improve upon that state of affairs (which is a problem if you're wanting to discuss these ideas). Seriously, you asked people who train in arts where the idea of "fighting" isn't so important to explain that to you… and are fighting against every answer you get.
This is so true I think you need to read it again.
This is on you-tube, so you know it's real… oh, but ignore the title… this isn't from Judo…
.
Now this is an interesting clip. I hope,
Hanzou, that you watched it carefully. It demonstrates the karateka's knowledge of and the footwork from the stances you dismissed as irrelevant. He uses Sanchin dachi in the simple takedowns, he is stepping out into Zenkutsu dachi and transitioning into Shiko dachi in some of the others. This is exactly what is taught in basic Goju. Absolutely nothing to do with judo and absolutely 'pure' Goju Ryu.
Quick question… what do you think grappling is?
Another good question it I doubt we'll get a detailed answer.
Where has the idea of "pure Karate grappling" come from? Do you simply invent what you think people are saying, and complain that it's not true?
Sadly, this is definitely the case.
Now let's address where again you misquoted me with the word 'pure'.
Grappling within Karate that isn't derived from cross-training.
The video posted by Chris is basic stances. 'Pure' karate. The kata are full of locks holds and takedowns. Again, 'pure' karate.
You don't even understand the reasons why people cross train. I didn't start Aikido to learn Aikido. I started Aikido to better understand the applications within my Goju. I studied striking from a Shotokan guy to make my strikes in Goju more powerful. I studied Systema to better understand how to absorb punches and move in the most economical way within my karate. Certainly I learned a little from BJJ that wasn't in Goju, but that was so I could escape from a grappler, not to compete with one.
It is also extremely difficult to control a person's entire body with one arm.
What crap! I'm sure even you have applied an arm bar. The same is true of a properly applied wrist lock.
You seriously don't see how those attributes don't improve your karate techniques?
Conditioning increases your endurance, coordination, flexibility, and toughness. All of which is important in performing technique.
Proper etiquette, Meditation, general cleanliness, respect, etc. is simply aspects of discipline and self control. Again, important parts of becoming a better fighter. You can look at any sports team or athlete who doesn't have good discipline or self control, and they tend to be pretty terrible at their sport because the lack of self control and discipline seeps into your actual ability to perform.
Isn't it irony? You can see the great benefit of these things within karate that, in your humble opinion, improve karate technique but dismiss kata as a waste of time.
So..... they're almost unheard of in what you trained in, yet the Bjj strikes you've seen were unimpressive to you?
Okay.... So are we in agreement that there IS striking in Bjj?
If you observe the Gracies in action vids, there's plenty of striking being done by the Gracies and their students. Is it pretty? No. Is it effective? Yes.
More irony. Striking is now a big part of BJJ, despite being rarely seen, but striking doesn't exist in Aikido and grappling isn't a big part of karate.
Interestingly, I've done both Karate and Judo. I have a black belt in Shotokan, and I took Judo briefly in college, and I continue to take Judo since its offered at my Bjj school. The first time I learned a hip throw was in Judo. The second time I learned hip throws was in Bjj. I never learned hip throws or any throws for that matter, in Karate.
Sadly, we've already established that you learned little from your karate training, just as you have learned nothing from other people's experience here on MT.
I certainly don't doubt that there are Karate systems out there that teach the hip throw. In my neck of the woods, they don't unless the instructor has cross-trained. You kind of see it in that video where one Karateka is constantly utilizing throws while the other is completely dumbfounded by it and has no way to counter them. That (along with the title and description of the vid) indicates that the Karateka doing the throws had cross-trained in Judo either on his own or via his instructor.
Personally I don't classify these takedowns as throws but I'm happy for you to call them that. If you were a
first time student in my dojo I would show you each of those takedowns to demonstrate the application of the basic stances you learn from day 1. Another irony. A karateka who is being outclassed is normal but a karateka using basic training must have learned it elsewhere
