How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

[Hanzou]

His arm can remain extended if the other guy is holding it there.

Really? You actually believe that you can keep someone's arm extended simply by grabbing their wrist? He isn't even in the direction of the extension, so in order to maintain the extension, he needs to pull his opponent's arm (and thus his opponent's entire body) using just his shoulder muscle. Good luck with that. Your shoulder versus his entire body? Who do you think is going to win that one?

Because it is against the rules of most competition formats. Even grabbing on the thigh could be seen as a groin shot.

Depends on the competition rules really. Groin shots tend to be a universal no-no, but hooking the thigh/upper leg or gripping the pants tends to be fair game. You could attempt this in MMA for example. However no one in MMA would be crazy enough to attempt this.

You seem to think grabbing someones wrist is extremely difficult. This is because you do not practice a style that involves a lot of blocking so obviously it will be more difficult for you to do it. It is not that hard to do.

I don't think grabbing someone's wrist is difficult at all. I think grabbing someone's wrist while they're trying to punch you in the face or body is extremely difficult. It is also extremely difficult to control a person's entire body with one arm.

Of course I'm talking to someone who think they can punch and kick their way out of side control and the mount, so I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[Hanzou]

What definition? The incomplete, inaccurate, and largely incorrect one you found, or an actual definition?

In your opinion.

Eh, you try to kick or hit someone with a lot of methods, and you're going to hurt yourself… and sure, Tae Bo doesn't claim to be a martial art… but that wasn't the point. The question was always what you were labelling as combatively derived ("fighting") components… so far, you haven't been clear on that. You're seeming to have a largely subjective definition… one where, if it doesn't match what you expect it to be, it isn't a martial art… I got news for you… there are lots of martial arts that don't match what you'd expect.

Actually I've been very clear cut. The fact that Tae Bo doesn't claim to be a martial art kind of makes my point for me, and fits right along with my entire argument.

To be blunt, I'd consider Iaido far more of a "martial art" than MMA, BJJ, or anything of the kind… but that's my perspective.

If you're using Elder's description of Iaido it most certainly is not. However, I would be very interested in hearing your argument for that, since I know you disagreed with Elder's description of Iaido earlier in the thread.

Meditation, conditioning, proper etiquette, care and maintenance of your uniform, including wearing it properly… of course, I might note that you have changed your parameters yet again…

You seriously don't see how those attributes don't improve your karate techniques?

Conditioning increases your endurance, coordination, flexibility, and toughness. All of which is important in performing technique.

Proper etiquette, Meditation, general cleanliness, respect, etc. is simply aspects of discipline and self control. Again, important parts of becoming a better fighter. You can look at any sports team or athlete who doesn't have good discipline or self control, and they tend to be pretty terrible at their sport because the lack of self control and discipline seeps into your actual ability to perform.

Sure… I'd say that's a fairly liberal usage of the term "enemy", but I come from a rather different background… where that term is very specific, and has some quite clear-cut implications that go well beyond what you're talking about…

So you wouldn't consider someone trying to attack you or your family and possibly trying to take your life an "enemy"?

That wasn't the definition you gave earlier… that was the point. The definition you gave was incomplete and inaccurate… it wasn't that BJJ wasn't a martial art, or didn't involve fighting in a particular context, it was that your given definitions were lacking. Again, you missed the context of what was being said.

I took the liberty of going back and looking up the definition of fight I gave earlier (actually Danny T gave it, but anyways...)

Fight

: to use weapons or physical force to try to hurt someone, to defeat an enemy, etc. : to struggle in battle or physical combat
: to be involved in (a battle, struggle, etc.) involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons.

Physical force to hurt someone or defeat an enemy= Bjj.
To struggle in battle or physical combat= Bjj
To be involved in a battle/struggle, etc. involving the exchange of physical blows= Bjj.

Your context was that Bjj doesn't fit the definition of fight that I was using. Its not that I didn't understand the context of what you were saying. Its that the context of what your were saying was wrong.

Okay. They were an almost unheard of aspect in the Gracie lineage I trained in… and what I've seen have been very unimpressive… but, of course, there's no reason to bring up the fact that an art that specialises in one area might be lacking in another…

So..... they're almost unheard of in what you trained in, yet the Bjj strikes you've seen were unimpressive to you?

Okay.... So are we in agreement that there IS striking in Bjj?

If you observe the Gracies in action vids, there's plenty of striking being done by the Gracies and their students. Is it pretty? No. Is it effective? Yes.

Because I can see what's in the video, I can recognise when it's Judo or not, I can see the throws in karate, and so on. Oh, and the comments on the video agree with me, for the record… pointing out that the throws/grappling methods shown are part of karate…

So you're saying that Judo doesn't teach hip throws and foot sweeps?

Interestingly, I've done both Karate and Judo. I have a black belt in Shotokan, and I took Judo briefly in college, and I continue to take Judo since its offered at my Bjj school. The first time I learned a hip throw was in Judo. The second time I learned hip throws was in Bjj. I never learned hip throws or any throws for that matter, in Karate.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Hanzou you may not have learned a hip[ throw in your study of Karate but I sure did and in fact I learned it over and over thill I could do it without thinking when attacked. I learned other throws also.
Those I learned from my instructor the ones withinf the forms he made me find for mylsef and then show him when I found them and explain the how and why of the move along with the other possibilities of that movement.
Again itt may depend on the instructor, his knowledge, what he wishes to pass on at a certian time in a students training, and it may depende on the style/system and what has been passed down through time

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou you may not have learned a hip[ throw in your study of Karate but I sure did and in fact I learned it over and over thill I could do it without thinking when attacked. I learned other throws also.
Those I learned from my instructor the ones withinf the forms he made me find for mylsef and then show him when I found them and explain the how and why of the move along with the other possibilities of that movement.
Again itt may depend on the instructor, his knowledge, what he wishes to pass on at a certian time in a students training, and it may depende on the style/system and what has been passed down through time

I certainly don't doubt that there are Karate systems out there that teach the hip throw. In my neck of the woods, they don't unless the instructor has cross-trained. You kind of see it in that video where one Karateka is constantly utilizing throws while the other is completely dumbfounded by it and has no way to counter them. That (along with the title and description of the vid) indicates that the Karateka doing the throws had cross-trained in Judo either on his own or via his instructor.

 

[Danny T]

Hanzou you may not have learned a hip[ throw in your study of Karate but I sure did and in fact I learned it over and over thill I could do it without thinking when attacked. I learned other throws also.
Those I learned from my instructor the ones withinf the forms he made me find for mylsef and then show him when I found them and explain the how and why of the move along with the other possibilities of that movement.
Again itt may depend on the instructor, his knowledge, what he wishes to pass on at a certian time in a students training, and it may depende on the style/system and what has been passed down through time

Yea, I agree shadowchaser my experiences are similar.
Let's see,
Shotokan in 71 & 72, throws, takedowns, arm and leg locks, & chokes. Yes we did.
Goju Ryu in 73 -74, throws, takedowns, arm and leg locks, & chokes. Yeap did that.
Shotokan 75-76, different instructor, different school. Yes here again.
TKD 73-74, I realize it isn't Karate but non the less. Yes we did throws & etc in this training. Wasn't just kicking.

I also know of 8 Shotokan schools and 3 Karate (???) schools in my area all but 1 has..., wait for it... they have; here it is. Throws!! And all they do is Karate but for one that does also do BJJ (BJJ Revelution).

The thing is Hanzou, you won't admit your training is limited, your knowledge is limited and will not allow that others have experiences different from you and therefore perspective is different from yours. Not that theirs is right or wrong just different. It is because you won't allow other's perspectives it makes you wrong.

 

[Hanzou]

Yea, I agree shadowchaser my experiences are similar.
Let's see,
Shotokan in 71 & 72, throws, takedowns, arm and leg locks, & chokes. Yes we did.
Goju Ryu in 73 -74, throws, takedowns, arm and leg locks, & chokes. Yeap did that.
Shotokan 75-76, different instructor, different school. Yes here again.
TKD 73-74, I realize it isn't Karate but non the less. Yes we did throws & etc in this training. Wasn't just kicking.

I also know of 8 Shotokan schools and 3 Karate (???) schools in my area all but 1 has..., wait for it... they have; here it is. Throws!! And all they do is Karate but for one that does also do BJJ (BJJ Revelution).

The thing is Hanzou, you won't admit your training is limited, your knowledge is limited and will not allow that others have experiences different from you and therefore perspective is different from yours. Not that theirs is right or wrong just different. It is because you won't allow other's perspectives it makes you wrong.

I disagree. I'm certainly open to other people's perspectives, however if you're going to tell me that throws are widely taught in Shotokan karate, I simply disagree with that argument. Hell, based on what you said above, there's almost as many throws in Shotokan, Goju, and TKD as there are in Kodokan Judo. In all seriousness, where would one have time to teach all of that on top of all the stances, strikes, and katas in any given form of Karate?

To compound this, I can pull up various vids of Karate or TKD exponents free sparring, and none of them are performing any throws or takedowns whatsoever. You might see someone catch a leg and sweep, or perform a sloppy clinch throw, but certainly nothing on the level to indicate they have a high level of grappling experience, which is exactly the argument you're making above.

Listen, I don't doubt that you went to some random dojos and learned 70+ grappling techniques, but to say that that is somehow the norm is a dubious argument at best.

Perhaps you could provide the websites/names of these schools?

 

[Tez3]

I'm not Shotokan, I'm Wado Ryu and most certainly there are throws in our karate and we are taught them use them too. Grappling has always been in karate, just that the emphasis was put on striking but the grappling is there. Before the Queensbury rules there was also grappling in boxing.
Iain Abernethy has a couple of very good books on the grappling in karate with examples from the kata.
I have said before and will say again that videos on the internet prove nothing whatsoever, other than that people like to post videos. That there is no 'throws or takedowns' in the 'free sparring' videos isn't a surprise, no more than not finding a Bo being used in an MMA competition. Time, place and rules.
As you like videos so much.......

 

[Tez3]

And just to keep you busy with all those 'there's no grappling/takedowns in karate' thoughts

 

[Tez3]

Karate Grappling Did It Really Exist Iain Abernethy

 

[Hanzou]

Wado-Ryu is a hybrid combination of Shotokan and Jujutsu, so that doesn't surprise me.

 

[elder999]

I
Interestingly, I've done both Karate and Judo. I have a black belt in Shotokan, and I took Judo briefly in college, and I continue to take Judo since its offered at my Bjj school. The first time I learned a hip throw was in Judo. The second time I learned hip throws was in Bjj. I never learned hip throws or any throws for that matter, in Karate.

Well, that's interesting. You must recognize these, then.....
:

I mean, Karate Kyohon is Funakoshi's book. You know, Funakoshi, the creator of "Shotokan?" In fact, the very name "Shotokan," comes from his name, and all of these throws are in the kata you had to learn to earn your "black belt."

I mean, did they teach "Shotokan" where you learned "Shotokan," or was it just another Hanzou Naruto Ki board do dojo?

Oh, and don't ever call me "chief" again.

 

[Tez3]

Roflmao, I knew you'd say something like that, had a quid on with husband.
Oh dear, now I've finished laughing.....you stated karate doesn't contain take downs and grappling, so now you are qualifying it?
I take it only the karate you name as being karate counts? Despite the fact that grappling and takedowns were always in karate? That Tegumi doesn't exist? that the Japanese arts weren't heavily influenced by Chinese boxing which contained wrestling ( back to 2000 BCE by all accounts)? Oh I forgot because you weren't taught these in karate they therefore don't exist.
Boxing contained a lot of grappling and takedowns, holds and ground fighting. Look up James Figg and how he won his title against Sutton in 1727, but of course because there's only punches in boxing and that's what's taught now there can never have been grappling etc in boxing.
Wado Ryu is karate absolutely no doubt, not a hybrid. Ohtsuka Sensei just understood the grappling and takedowns that were already in karate better than some other masters. He was a Jujutsu master so had the interest to use the techniques already found in karate, he didn't add them.

 

[Tez3]

and Elder's excellent post proves my point because Shotokan came before Wado Ryu.....

 

[Cirdan]

Thanks for the dislike in my post #2 Tames D, maybe you care to share your thoughts on the subject too? Todeloo.

 

[ballen0351]

Hanzou there are multiple people with Dan rankings in multiple styles of Karate all telling you what exists in the style they have spent many years in. Yet you who have no experience in these styles keep telling them they are wrong. So how are you such in expert in all these styles that you know what is taught in these styles if you have never studied them?

 

[Cirdan]

No throws in karate hah, there is no breathing in BJJ either now is there? /sarcasm

 

[elder999]

Hanzou there are multiple people with Dan rankings in multiple styles of Karate all telling you what exists in the style they have spent many years in. Yet you who have no experience in these styles keep telling them they are wrong. So how are you such in expert in all these styles that you know what is taught in these styles if you have never studied them?

Oh, he has a "black belt" in Shotokan. DIdn't you know-the very art ffom which the book containing those "impractical" throws I posted came from-in fact, those photos depict the progenitor of that art, you know, the one [he says he has a "black belt" in?

I.
Interestingly, I've done both Karate and Judo. I have a black belt in Shotokan, and I took Judo briefly in college, and I continue to take Judo since its offered at my Bjj school. The first time I learned a hip throw was in Judo. The second time I learned hip throws was in Bjj. I never learned hip throws or any throws for that matter, in Karate.

Oh, for a r:lfao: smiley right about now......

 

[ballen0351]

Oh, for a r:lfao: smiley right about now......

You must be going through withdrawals that was your Go to smiley

 

[Tez3]

Hanzou there are multiple people with Dan rankings in multiple styles of Karate all telling you what exists in the style they have spent many years in. Yet you who have no experience in these styles keep telling them they are wrong. So how are you such in expert in all these styles that you know what is taught in these styles if you have never studied them?

If there is no video of the technique etc on You Tube it therefore does not exist!

 

[elder999]

You must be going through withdrawals that was your Go to smiley

I'm tellin' ya man, it's killin' me! I mean, these just don't do it for me:


I mean