How effective is sport BJJ (or GJJ) on the Street?

[Tez3]

No, I don't mean MMA fighter, I mean UFC fighter. I know that UFC is MMA, I was just saying in a hypothetical situation.

No, Mixed Martial Arts is the style of fighting, the UFC is a fight promotion business run for profit. Those who fight on the UFC shows are MMA fighters.

I've seen it used in Anthony Bourdain as well as Burn Notice

Can I gently suggest to you that martial arts are real, what you see on the television on in films isn't.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

No, Mixed Martial Arts is the style of fighting, the UFC is a fight promotion business run for profit. Those who fight on the UFC shows are MMA fighters.




Can I gently suggest to you that martial arts are real, what you see on the television on in films isn't.

i didn't actually think that MMA is the name of the entire UFC business. i guess I should have worded my post better but yeah i'm not stupid. As far as seeing Sambo on tv, i was just trying to make conversation.

 

[Tez3]

i didn't actually think that MMA is the name of the entire UFC business. i guess I should have worded my post better but yeah i'm not stupid. As far as seeing Sambo on tv, i was just trying to make conversation.

The film/television comment wasn't based on just that one post of yours.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You're kidding right? If I have someone in a controlled position, what exactly are they going to bite that will force me to release my hold on them?

This line of argumentation is about as bad as people saying they can dick-punch their way out of grappling.

Hanzou,

Listen if someone bites you and you are in their guard, mount, crossbody, etc. and they really dig in with that bite. I think you will be trying to get away from them as fast as you possibly can. Like you, I understand positioning in grappling very, very well. Your not going to punch someone in the groin, your probably going to have a really, really bad outcome if you attempt to punch someone when they are mounted on you. However, if in your arrogance you allow someone to bite you deeply? Well it is going to suck to be you and it doesn't matter what position you are in. That is almost as laughable as when someone says they will let a dog bite them or I'll take that first shot from the blade. The natural reaction to being bit and or suffering trauma is to try and get the hell away from it and the pain and trauma that is being caused. Try not to have a blind spot in your training as there are weaknesses in every martial system including BJJ.

 

[drop bear]

I don't see how knowledge of grappling would make you a more effective biter. In the end, if you need to resort to biting, I hope you have great dental insurance because you're more than likely going to lose your teeth.

Are we working on the premise that both have about the same chance. Or are suggesting that we are outclassed by the other grappler.

 

[Hanzou]

Are we working on the premise that both have about the same chance. Or are suggesting that we are outclassed by the other grappler.

The original argument revolved around a guy with little to no grappling knowledge vs a trained grappler. Essentially the ridiculous idea that grapplers leave their vital spots wide open for Dracula bites.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou,

Listen if someone bites you and you are in their guard, mount, crossbody, etc. and they really dig in with that bite. I think you will be trying to get away from them as fast as you possibly can. Like you, I understand positioning in grappling very, very well. Your not going to punch someone in the groin, your probably going to have a really, really bad outcome if you attempt to punch someone when they are mounted on you. However, if in your arrogance you allow someone to bite you deeply? Well it is going to suck to be you and it doesn't matter what position you are in. That is almost as laughable as when someone says they will let a dog bite them or I'll take that first shot from the blade. The natural reaction to being bit and or suffering trauma is to try and get the hell away from it and the pain and trauma that is being caused. Try not to have a blind spot in your training as there are weaknesses in every martial system including BJJ.

You mean in MY guard right?

Obligatory:

Also I tend to wear pants and shirts. I tend to avoid fighting people naked. So good luck biting deeply through a shirt or a pair of pants.

Finally, Human teeth are not as sharp, nor are their jaws as strong as a dog's, so that's a pretty bad comparison.

 

[elder999]

You mean in MY guard right?

Obligatory:

Also I tend to wear pants and shirts. I tend to avoid fighting people naked. So good luck biting deeply through a shirt or a pair of pants.

Finally, Human teeth are not as sharp, nor are their jaws as strong as a dog's, so that's a pretty bad comparison.

Here's an article from the New England Journal of Medicine on human bites:

MMS Error

And here's one from Discovery on human bite strength.

Human Bite Stronger Than Thought Discovery News

One of my teachers used to routinely bite through quarters and nails. It was part of his act.

I'm also pretty sure your bite is at least as strong as a chihuahua's.....you certainly yip like one enough...in any case, the comparison kinda stands.....

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

The film/television comment wasn't based on just that one post of yours.

My memory is bad, I have no recollection of talking about film/te

Here's an article from the New England Journal of Medicine on human bites:

MMS Error

And here's one from Discovery on human bite strength.

Human Bite Stronger Than Thought Discovery News

One of my teachers used to routinely bite through quarters and nails. It was part of his act.

I'm also pretty sure your bite is at least as strong as a chihuahua's.....you certainly yip like one enough...in any case, the comparison kinda stands.....

through quarters and nails damn that's impressive

 

[elder999]

My memory is bad, I have no recollection of talking about film/te

through quarters and nails damn that's impressive

Mr. Greenstein was just that: damn impressive

 

[drop bear]

The original argument revolved around a guy with little to no grappling knowledge vs a trained grappler. Essentially the ridiculous idea that grapplers leave their vital spots wide open for Dracula bites.

Well that is silly. If the other guy is better then you are in trouble.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You mean in MY guard right?

Obligatory:

Also I tend to wear pants and shirts. I tend to avoid fighting people naked. So good luck biting deeply through a shirt or a pair of pants.

Finally, Human teeth are not as sharp, nor are their jaws as strong as a dog's, so that's a pretty bad comparison.

Love Draculino and have really nothing but great things to say about him and agree that the guard is a great skill set and dangerous to deal with when the practitioner knows what they are doing. However, Hanzou that is all compliant playing around. There were a couple of times in that video when Draculino could have easily been bitten. That was a compliant fun video no different than compliant videos you poke fun at. It would be really interesting though to have a grappling tournament where biting was allowed and encourage. Would love to see the results. lol (not really though as that was a joke as it would have a serious gruesome bloody mess)

I know of know BJJ practitioner that routine trains grappling to avoid being bitten around the neck and in other vulnerable parts. The art has a glaring weakness in this area. If they did they would look very closely at a few details to work to negate it. Now, I do not advocate biting. The reason for that though is that I really do not want someone's blood in my mouth. (still if I had to) I advocate positional dominance that allows you to break, choke, strike someone. Yet, to dismiss it is foolish.

Your comment about wearing a shirt or pants are not going to provide you any protection from someone biting you. Jeans might give you a modicum of protection but the human bite is pretty strong. Not to mention your neck, face, ears, biceps, etc., etc. typically do not have a covering that will stop a human bite unless it is very cold and you are wearing a coat. This is a weakness in your thought pattern. You routinely dismiss things that are at this point outside your comfort and knowledge zone. You need to get out and experience more training just to broaden your perspective!

 

[Hanzou]

Here's an article from the New England Journal of Medicine on human bites:

MMS Error

And here's one from Discovery on human bite strength.

Human Bite Stronger Than Thought Discovery News

One of my teachers used to routinely bite through quarters and nails. It was part of his act.

I'm also pretty sure your bite is at least as strong as a chihuahua's.....you certainly yip like one enough...in any case, the comparison kinda stands.....

I'm sorry, where in either one of those articles did it say that a human bite is as strong as a dog's?

 

[Hanzou]

Love Draculino and have really nothing but great things to say about him and agree that the guard is a great skill set and dangerous to deal with when the practitioner knows what they are doing. However, Hanzou that is all compliant playing around. There were a couple of times in that video when Draculino could have easily been bitten. That was a compliant fun video no different than compliant videos you poke fun at. It would be really interesting though to have a grappling tournament where biting was allowed and encourage. Would love to see the results. lol (not really though as that was a joke as it would have a serious gruesome bloody mess)

I know of know BJJ practitioner that routine trains grappling to avoid being bitten around the neck and in other vulnerable parts. The art has a glaring weakness in this area. If they did they would look very closely at a few details to work to negate it. Now, I do not advocate biting. The reason for that though is that I really do not want someone's blood in my mouth. (still if I had to) I advocate positional dominance that allows you to break, choke, strike someone. Yet, to dismiss it is foolish.

Your comment about wearing a shirt or pants are not going to provide you any protection from someone biting you. Jeans might give you a modicum of protection but the human bite is pretty strong. Not to mention your neck, face, ears, biceps, etc., etc. typically do not have a covering that will stop a human bite unless it is very cold and you are wearing a coat. This is a weakness in your thought pattern. You routinely dismiss things that are at this point outside your comfort and knowledge zone. You need to get out and experience more training just to broaden your perspective!

You say that BJJ has a glaring weakness from biting attacks. Where exactly? What position opens you up to getting bitten by someone?

You honestly believe that someone could bite their way out of guard? How exactly? What about the mount? You think someone I'm sitting on top of has the speed and mobility to bite me before I pound their face on? I posted that vid to showcase the principle behind the guard position. It doesn't need to be an actual fight to show that attempting playground antics in an inferior position is a recipie for disaster.

 

[drop bear]

Hanzou,

Listen if someone bites you and you are in their guard, mount, crossbody, etc. and they really dig in with that bite. I think you will be trying to get away from them as fast as you possibly can. Like you, I understand positioning in grappling very, very well. Your not going to punch someone in the groin, your probably going to have a really, really bad outcome if you attempt to punch someone when they are mounted on you. However, if in your arrogance you allow someone to bite you deeply? Well it is going to suck to be you and it doesn't matter what position you are in. That is almost as laughable as when someone says they will let a dog bite them or I'll take that first shot from the blade. The natural reaction to being bit and or suffering trauma is to try and get the hell away from it and the pain and trauma that is being caused. Try not to have a blind spot in your training as there are weaknesses in every martial system including BJJ.

I have been bitten fighting guys. There are defences to it just like anything else.
Otherwise.
If you wrestle or mma with a guy who knows how to grind. You will get a different perspective on the concept of pressure points and pain compliance. There are guys who are mean as hell.

If you wrestle you will get slapped scratched and eye gouged and you want to be on to that.

But also a lot of good grappling is head control which negates biting.

Which puts me back to my original statement that knowing how grappling works improves the biting option.

 

[drop bear]

You say that BJJ has a glaring weakness from biting attacks. Where exactly? What position opens you up to getting bitten by someone?

You honestly believe that someone could bite their way out of guard? How exactly? What about the mount? You think someone I'm sitting on top of has the speed and mobility to bite me before I pound their face on? I posted that vid to showcase the principle behind the guard position. It doesn't need to be an actual fight to show that attempting playground antics in an inferior position is a recipie for disaster.

During a stack pass.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have been bitten fighting guys. There are defences to it just like anything else.
Otherwise.
If you wrestle or mma with a guy who knows how to grind. You will get a different perspective on the concept of pressure points and pain compliance. There are guys who are mean as hell.

If you wrestle you will get slapped scratched and eye gouged and you want to be on to that.

But also a lot of good grappling is head control which negates biting.

Which puts me back to my original statement that knowing how grappling works improves the biting option.

Absolutely we are in total agreement!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The only instructor who ever showed me an escape based on biting was a BJJ black belt, for whatever that's worth.

I wouldn't advocate relying on biting as a substitute for good grappling skills, but I wouldn't advocate ignoring the damage that could be done by an aggressive biter either. The first step in learning how to effectively counter a given tactic (such as biting) is to understand and respect the dangers that tactic can present.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You say that BJJ has a glaring weakness from biting attacks. Where exactly? What position opens you up to getting bitten by someone?

You honestly believe that someone could bite their way out of guard? How exactly? What about the mount? You think someone I'm sitting on top of has the speed and mobility to bite me before I pound their face on? I posted that vid to showcase the principle behind the guard position. It doesn't need to be an actual fight to show that attempting playground antics in an inferior position is a recipie for disaster.

Hanzou,

The guard as we both know is a neutral position where both people have opportunity to attack and defend. Both have openings. There are opportunities within those openings to attack and well yes there are opportunities to bite. If you are biting and someone is mounted on you that is probably going to work out as well as trying to punch your way out. (when you are on the bottom) Yet, it is still a possibility and if you know when and wear that possibility has a greater chance. There are lots of opportunities from the top game. So much that it is easy because no one defends against them. Just like there are opportunities to draw your knife, firearm, etc.

Listen you might be really surprised at over the course of time how many people have actually been bitten. It happens, it can happen, if you do not account for it then you have a weakness in your game. Sorry, that is just the reality of the situation.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou,

The guard as we both know is a neutral position where both people have opportunity to attack and defend. Both have openings.

Yeah, how about no. The Guard is a dominant position unless you're dealing with an equally trained opponent in a striking environment, such as a MMA fighter, or a grappler specially trained to counter it, like Sambo or an equally or superior skilled grappler. Against someone like that, the guard slips into neutral territory. Against someone who has little to no grappling knowledge, the guard is a positional advantage which the person inside guard must pass out of. Attempting to attack someone while in their guard isn't a good idea unless you're highly trained. If you're a hannibal lector wannabe with little to no grappling experience, you're going to be going to sleep with your limbs snapped rather quickly.

There are opportunities within those openings to attack and well yes there are opportunities to bite. If you are biting and someone is mounted on you that is probably going to work out as well as trying to punch your way out. (when you are on the bottom) Yet, it is still a possibility and if you know when and wear that possibility has a greater chance. There are lots of opportunities from the top game. So much that it is easy because no one defends against them. Just like there are opportunities to draw your knife, firearm, etc.

But here's the rub; The person utilizing the guard has far more weapons at their disposal than the person stuck in the guard. Not only do they have more limbs attacking, but they control your posture and balance, and can easily attack your arms and upper body, or completely sweep. If you've never been inside the guard and you're fighting against someone who is highly skilled from that position, you're screwed.

We can both agree that there's a big difference between biting someone, and pulling out a knife or a gun, right? I have no problem saying that if you're grappling against someone with a knife or a gun, you're in a world of trouble. However, if someone is in your guard trying to bite you, you should view that as a freebie.

Listen you might be really surprised at over the course of time how many people have actually been bitten. It happens, it can happen, if you do not account for it then you have a weakness in your game. Sorry, that is just the reality of the situation.

There's a difference between saying that a bite can hurt, or be painful, and saying that someone biting you negates skilled grappling completely. The former is common sense. The latter is complete nonsense.