How effective is sport BJJ (or GJJ) on the Street?

[Paul_D]

To assess who effective BJJ is "in the street" then surely we need to ascertain how effective it is at dealing with the most frequent HAOV, as they are the ones you are most likely to experience "on the street"?

Male on Male, Close Quarters:

1. One person pushes, hands to chest, which is normally followed by the pushee striking first, to the head.
2. A swinging punch to the head.
3. A front clothing grab, one handed, followed by punch to the head.
4. A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a head butt.
5. A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a knee to the groin.
6. A bottle, glass, or ashtray to the head.
7. A lashing kick to groin/lower legs.
8. A broken bottle/glass jabbed to face.
9. A slash with knife, most commonly a 3 to 4″ lockblade knife or kitchen utility knife. (Apart from muggings, sexual assaults and gang violence, the hunting/combat type knife is seldom used)
10. A grappling style head lock.

Offences against the person, male on female:

This data was gathered from interviews with victims and offenders and from statements. Data only covers robbery/sexual methodology and changes relative to first contact with victim ie., venue/ night/day etc.

Domestic violence is not covered as this is a specific subject of its’ own.

1. The victim was approached from the rear/side/front, a threat was made with a weapon, and then the weapon was hidden. Then the victim’s right upper arm was held by the attacker’s left hand and the victim was led away.
2. A silent or rushing approach was made from the victim’s rear, and then a rear neck/head lock applied and the victim dragged away.
3. The same approach as in #2, with a rear waist grab. The victim was carried/dragged away, normally into bushes/alley etc.
4. The victim was pinned to a wall with a throat grab with the attacker’s left hand. A weapon-shown threat was made, and then the weapon hidden, and the victim led away.
5. The victim was approached from rear/ front/side. The attacker grabbed the victim’s hair with his left hand, and then she was dragged away.

The Most Common Wrist Grips, Male On Female:

1. The attacker’s left hand, thumb uppermost, gripping the victim’s raised right wrist. The attacker threatens/ gesticulates with his right hand.
2. With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker grips the victim’s right upper arm with his left hand and her right wrist with his right hand.
3. The victim raises both arms, with both of her wrists gripped. The attacker’s hands are vertical with the attacker’s thumbs uppermost.
4. With the victim’s arms down, the attacker grabs both upper arms.
5. With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker’s left hand grabs just below the right elbow, and his right hand grabs her wrist.

I don't study BJJ myself, so I can;t comment on how many of these scenarios BJJ prepares you for. I shall leave that to someoen who studies it.

 

[kuniggety]

The answer is always flying arm bar. Seriously though, great list Paul_D. As a student of BJJ (not an expert though), I can think of reasonable reactions I would have to all of these situations given my training. I do have some prior striking experience but am primarily a grappler now.

 

[Hanzou]

Possibility. At the beach maybe. Saw a couple of videos of the guys at Gracie Academy doing some training and explaining what they were doing on a beach.

Yeah, I tend to wear clothing at the beach as well. As do most people. I suppose if I'm at a nude beach somewhere....

Ok, your grappling skill is so good you will never have any exposure to bites, strikes, pushes, kicks, punches, pokes or any other action.

Nice strawman. Where did I say anything about strikes, pushing, or action in general? I'm simply pointing out that I tend to wear clothes outdoors, and it's pretty hard to imagine someone biting through my clothes to the point where I can't react and counter them.

Especially if I'm in a dominant position.

 

[Hanzou]

To assess who effective BJJ is "in the street" then surely we need to ascertain how effective it is at dealing with the most frequent HAOV, as they are the ones you are most likely to experience "on the street"?

Male on Male, Close Quarters:

1. One person pushes, hands to chest, which is normally followed by the pushee striking first, to the head.
2. A swinging punch to the head.
3. A front clothing grab, one handed, followed by punch to the head.
4. A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a head butt.
5. A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a knee to the groin.
6. A bottle, glass, or ashtray to the head.
7. A lashing kick to groin/lower legs.
8. A broken bottle/glass jabbed to face.
9. A slash with knife, most commonly a 3 to 4″ lockblade knife or kitchen utility knife. (Apart from muggings, sexual assaults and gang violence, the hunting/combat type knife is seldom used)
10. A grappling style head lock.

Offences against the person, male on female:

This data was gathered from interviews with victims and offenders and from statements. Data only covers robbery/sexual methodology and changes relative to first contact with victim ie., venue/ night/day etc.

Domestic violence is not covered as this is a specific subject of its’ own.

1. The victim was approached from the rear/side/front, a threat was made with a weapon, and then the weapon was hidden. Then the victim’s right upper arm was held by the attacker’s left hand and the victim was led away.
2. A silent or rushing approach was made from the victim’s rear, and then a rear neck/head lock applied and the victim dragged away.
3. The same approach as in #2, with a rear waist grab. The victim was carried/dragged away, normally into bushes/alley etc.
4. The victim was pinned to a wall with a throat grab with the attacker’s left hand. A weapon-shown threat was made, and then the weapon hidden, and the victim led away.
5. The victim was approached from rear/ front/side. The attacker grabbed the victim’s hair with his left hand, and then she was dragged away.

The Most Common Wrist Grips, Male On Female:

1. The attacker’s left hand, thumb uppermost, gripping the victim’s raised right wrist. The attacker threatens/ gesticulates with his right hand.
2. With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker grips the victim’s right upper arm with his left hand and her right wrist with his right hand.
3. The victim raises both arms, with both of her wrists gripped. The attacker’s hands are vertical with the attacker’s thumbs uppermost.
4. With the victim’s arms down, the attacker grabs both upper arms.
5. With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker’s left hand grabs just below the right elbow, and his right hand grabs her wrist.

I don't study BJJ myself, so I can;t comment on how many of these scenarios BJJ prepares you for. I shall leave that to someoen who studies it.

Traditional BJJ (Gracie, Fadda) handles those situations just fine. Sport BJJ does not.

Example:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To assess who effective BJJ is "in the street" then surely we need to ascertain how effective it is at dealing with the most frequent HAOV, as they are the ones you are most likely to experience "on the street"?

Male on Male, Close Quarters:

1. One person pushes, hands to chest, which is normally followed by the pushee striking first, to the head.
2. A swinging punch to the head.
3. A front clothing grab, one handed, followed by punch to the head.
4. A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a head butt.
5. A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a knee to the groin.
6. A bottle, glass, or ashtray to the head.
7. A lashing kick to groin/lower legs.
8. A broken bottle/glass jabbed to face.
9. A slash with knife, most commonly a 3 to 4″ lockblade knife or kitchen utility knife. (Apart from muggings, sexual assaults and gang violence, the hunting/combat type knife is seldom used)
10. A grappling style head lock.

Offences against the person, male on female:

This data was gathered from interviews with victims and offenders and from statements. Data only covers robbery/sexual methodology and changes relative to first contact with victim ie., venue/ night/day etc.

Domestic violence is not covered as this is a specific subject of its’ own.

1. The victim was approached from the rear/side/front, a threat was made with a weapon, and then the weapon was hidden. Then the victim’s right upper arm was held by the attacker’s left hand and the victim was led away.
2. A silent or rushing approach was made from the victim’s rear, and then a rear neck/head lock applied and the victim dragged away.
3. The same approach as in #2, with a rear waist grab. The victim was carried/dragged away, normally into bushes/alley etc.
4. The victim was pinned to a wall with a throat grab with the attacker’s left hand. A weapon-shown threat was made, and then the weapon hidden, and the victim led away.
5. The victim was approached from rear/ front/side. The attacker grabbed the victim’s hair with his left hand, and then she was dragged away.

The Most Common Wrist Grips, Male On Female:

1. The attacker’s left hand, thumb uppermost, gripping the victim’s raised right wrist. The attacker threatens/ gesticulates with his right hand.
2. With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker grips the victim’s right upper arm with his left hand and her right wrist with his right hand.
3. The victim raises both arms, with both of her wrists gripped. The attacker’s hands are vertical with the attacker’s thumbs uppermost.
4. With the victim’s arms down, the attacker grabs both upper arms.
5. With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker’s left hand grabs just below the right elbow, and his right hand grabs her wrist.

I don't study BJJ myself, so I can;t comment on how many of these scenarios BJJ prepares you for. I shall leave that to someoen who studies it.

Cool list. What's the source?

 

[Danny T]

Yeah, I tend to wear clothing at the beach as well. As do most people. I suppose if I'm at a nude beach somewhere....

Most people wear swimwear at the beach

Nice strawman. Where did I say anything about strikes, pushing, or action in general?

No you didn't at this juncture.
However the sum of your opinions from all your posts state otherwise.

 

[drop bear]

You want to get on to a guy pretty quickly who is biting you. It isn't very nice. I wouldn't ignore it for two long.

 

[Hanzou]

Most people wear swimwear at the beach

Swimwear isn't clothing? Additionally I tend to wear a shirt and cargo shorts if I'm fishing, or walking along the beach at dusk or dawn. The beach isn't always a warm place.

No you didn't at this juncture.
However the sum of your opinions from all your posts state otherwise.

Feel free to find a post where I said that you don't have to worry about anything if you've trained in BJJ.

 

[FriedRice]

if someone bites, tries to eye gouge, etc. then they shouldn't expect tapping or being KO'ed and unconscious to be the end of the fight....especially if there aren't any witnesses nor surveillance cameras around.

 

[Danny T]

Feel free to find a post where I said that you don't have to worry about anything if you've trained in BJJ.

That is not what I wrote.
However you did write,"You say that BJJ has a glaring weakness from biting attacks. Where exactly? What position opens you up to getting bitten by someone?
You honestly believe that someone could bite their way out of guard? How exactly? What about the mount?"
Your context and subsequent questions are that biting vs a BJJ person is futile.
You also wrote, "However, if someone is in your guard trying to bite you, you should view that as a freebie."
Same sort of connotation has been used within your other opinions of a BJJ person vs whatever.
From what you write I can assume you don't use any tsubo points either to create a response, change of position, or movement either.

 

[Paul_D]

Cool list. What's the source?

Found it here Tony:-
HAOV Habitual Acts of Violence revisiting 2005 John Titchen s Blog

 

[Ironbear24]

Bjj and ground fighting are unique in that a small trained person can have quite an advantage on a larger untrained person on the ground. It's one of the few arts to really level the playing field between men and women. A larger trained man will still have an advantage but I've seen small female blue belts who can handle make white belts with relative ease. But what about the broken glass, and aids needles on the ground? The hordes of multiple opponents? Training in ground fighting gives you the training necessary to control and change your position. If you end up on your back (beyond your control) you'll have the ability to sweep and get up or change your position. As for multiple opponents? Good luck, without I weapon I don't think any art will give a smaller person an advantage. But it's still a scenario worth training.

Bjj is a specialty worth training, that or another art that has proven success in grappling. When you roll with resisting opponents regularly there's no speculation about how you'd apply your skill you've done it over and over. No training will ever 100% simulate reality. You can limit rules and roll or spar hard and learn to control an aggressive opponent or you can lighten the intensity and wirk more combative techniques. Both are a good approach to self defense. I personally value the ability to control an aggressive attacker first by trsinibg regular sparring.

So it's good at beating inexperienced people? All martial arts are good at this, any person with a little bit of training can generally beat someone with none.

That's not a good way to sell the style, I will say though that it can beat someone that has no ground training in a safer manner. You don't want to trade blows with an experienced striker if you can't even dance well with a yellow belt or something.

 

[Hanzou]

So it's good at beating inexperienced people? All martial arts are good at this, any person with a little bit of training can generally beat someone with none.

That's not a good way to sell the style, I will say though that it can beat someone that has no ground training in a safer manner. You don't want to trade blows with an experienced striker if you can't even dance well with a yellow belt or something.

No, its very good at beating experienced people because the majority of fighters (especially traditionally trained martial artists) don't train how to defend themselves on the ground. They develop ridiculous "strategies" that don't amount to a hill of beans and will get them submitted very quickly.

You would think that after almost 25 years of Bjj being on the scene, people would get the message. Unfortunately it seems that we've cycled back to the nonsense that permeated martial arts before 1992. Now I'm hearing people say that they've learned how to avoid getting taken down period, which ranks right up there with ki-master silliness.

 

[Ironbear24]

No, its very good at beating experienced people because the majority of fighters (especially traditionally trained martial artists) don't train how to defend themselves on the ground. They develop ridiculous "strategies" that don't amount to a hill of beans and will get them submitted very quickly.

You would think that after almost 25 years of Bjj being on the scene, people would get the message. Unfortunately it seems that we've cycled back to the nonsense that permeated martial arts before 1992. Now I'm hearing people say that they've learned how to avoid getting taken down period, which ranks right up there with ki-master silliness.

You said the same thing I said. Can beat someone with no ground training. I get what you mean though and honestly. That's cool. Let the stupid people be stupid and get submitted by anyone with some grappling experience.

If the grappler can get past thier strikes and close the gap then they have earned the win fair and square.

 

[oaktree]

What I always wonder about bjj on the streets is how you deal with the guy who has knives at his side and at his ankle. I always think if one of those guys in my guard he may get some punches in but my knife is slicing up his kidney when I grab it from my ankle.or taking from my side slicing open his intestines.something to think about when you grapple with a knife guy we like to hide our knifes till the end.

 

[drop bear]

What I always wonder about bjj on the streets is how you deal with the guy who has knives at his side and at his ankle. I always think if one of those guys in my guard he may get some punches in but my knife is slicing up his kidney when I grab it from my ankle.or taking from my side slicing open his intestines.something to think about when you grapple with a knife guy we like to hide our knifes till the end.

Being in guard vs a knife is pretty bad.

But if they are on top that is the best position you have.

Given a choice if you actually want to finish a guy with a knife you want them on their back. Because it is the most dominant position.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What I always wonder about bjj on the streets is how you deal with the guy who has knives at his side and at his ankle. I always think if one of those guys in my guard he may get some punches in but my knife is slicing up his kidney when I grab it from my ankle.or taking from my side slicing open his intestines.something to think about when you grapple with a knife guy we like to hide our knifes till the end.

I actually did this in sparring with friends the other week.

Obviously it wasn't a fully realistic simulation because (after the initial demonstration where I "shanked" my partner without warning to make a point) we knew the knives were present and could be pulled at any time. Still, it was good practice that we really should do more often.

Takeaway points...

Sometimes the position would end up so that the knife was trapped and could not be drawn. This is obviously preferable.

I was pleasantly surprised to find when sparring against the knife on the ground in almost all the positions we tried* I was able to win every time with either only superficial "cuts" or not getting cut at all. This is actually a better success rate than I've had standing.

That's not to say I would advocate going to the ground against a knife. Contributing factors to my success include:
a) we knew the knife was present
b) I'm a more advanced ground grappler (BJJ black belt) than either of the guys I was sparring with (purple belt and white belt).
c) neither of my sparring partners had a lot of training in using the knife. (I think they've both had a handful of classes, I've had significantly more.)
d) we were working strictly one-on-one, which meant I didn't have my attention split monitoring the environment for other attackers and could focus strictly on controlling the guy with the knife.

Overall, I would prefer to be standing and have the option of running.

*(We didn't try starting with the knife wielder on top of side control or in back mount. I think those would be pretty much lost causes for the defender.)

We actually started out working standup with the knife before we moved to the ground. My friend Oscar had been practicing some knife disarms with a friend who does Krav Maga. After I spent some time demonstrating how easily I could stab him even after allowing him to get the initial block and grab my arm, he commented "I'm actually feeling a lot worse and less confident about my knife defense than when we started." I replied "Good! You shouldn't feel confident of your ability to defend unarmed against the knife."

 

[oaktree]

I personally would want the opponent on top of me. I want them to feel confident let them work on finding submissions, let me take a punch of two while I reach for one of my knives. If I can't stab him with one and is defending against it, let me get my other knife out and start stabbing in vital areas.
Maybe I try to bridge let you try to regain your balance and slice your veins. Maybe you put your head close to mine as a hold exposing your carotid artery to me. For taking me down I want you to shoot in to me and try to take me down, instead of a guillotine choke my knife is against your throat, maybe as you go into bring me down my knife is in your kidney or in your chest.
Sport grapples don't think about these things and it cost them their life going against someone with a knife.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

As someone who does this type of training all the time for a very long time. I can personally say that if someone knows what they are doing you will never see the knife until you have felt it enter you! There are multiple points where if they know what they are doing you just won't see the knife. Your defense after this... well welcome to the pain and I will say a prayer for you! Because if they know what they are doing the knife will enter you in very specific and deadly points.

Now if someone draws while you can see what they are doing whether they are in a top position or bottom you have a chance of grappling their knife arm for control. A chance... though it is small. Odds are not good in your favor and Tony is definitely right in his above comments about rather being standing and have the ability to run away. You see, once you are on the ground your mobility is limited and you better gain control of their knife wielding arm or your in for a bad day! Even gaining control of the knife wielding arm is no guarantee as you better work for positional dominance and a strip/disarm. Good luck as you will need it!

Tony also mentioned side control and back mount being incredibly dangerous to defend as is top position in the half guard, top position in the half mount, etc. Any position where you may have visibility obstruction of one or more of their hands is bad karma is a weapon/tool is brought into the equation.

I have personally grappled and introduced BJJ Black Belts, Wrestlers, Judoka, etc. all were vulnerable and realized that this is a place they do not want to be. However, with some training they would have a better chance in this area than your average person due to their extensive grappling skills and body positional awareness. The core movement of their system helps them dramatically in this area with a few tweaks. BJJ is excellent core movement for this with some training!

Also as mentioned before grappling on the ground with a knife involved and multiple attackers? You just bought yourself a real life lesson in pain!

All of the above should give you a pause to consider having tools of your own to use if needed. ie. handgun, knife, etc. If you train well you may be able to utilize your tool before they can bring theirs to bear!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As someone who does this type of training all the time for a very long time. I can personally say that if someone knows what they are doing you will never see the knife until you have felt it enter you!

As I mentioned, we did this workout because my friend Oscar wanted to try the Krav knife defenses he had been learning. I explained that I was always hesitant to teach unarmed knife defenses because of all the false assumptions that people make with them.

To illustrate my point, I gave our friend Lucas a training knife and told him to square up about 10 feet away in a fighting stance. I asked Oscar if he had his knife defenses in mind and was ready to go. He said "yes."

So I pulled out the training knife I had hidden in my gi and stabbed him in the kidneys 5 times before he knew what was going on.

Lesson # 1 - if someone really wants to kill you with a knife, they probably aren't going to square up facing you with the knife visible. One of the big advantages of the knife as a killing tool is its concealability. If you don't see the knife coming, none of your disarms will work. Best defense is not to be in situations where someone wants to stab you. Failing that, learning how to spot concealed weapons could be a useful skill. (Any of our LEOs want to offer tips on how to best do that?)

Lesson # 2 - if someone does brandish a knife openly, there's an excellent chance they aren't out to kill you at that moment. Instead, they probably want to use the threat of the knife to get something from you - they want to rob you or rape you or scare you away or get you to come with them or just terrorize you. There are exceptions, of course. (Someone having a psychotic break or a jilted lover grabbing up a knife in the heat of the moment, for example.) However the first option is generally to recognize what the knife wielder wants and cooperate if it can be done safely (handing over your wallet) or work on escaping if cooperation is unsafe (someone trying to get you to come with them from a public area to a secondary location).

Lesson #3 - If you do see the knife coming and the assailant is out to hurt you - don't stand around trying to practice your knife disarms. Make distance. Find a weapon of your own. Put obstructions between you. Make noise to attract attention. Get to a safe place if at all possible. Even if you are very, very skilled at unarmed knife defenses, your odds are not great if you stand around and wait for the attack.

So when should you try your unarmed knife defenses? In that rare moment where you're lucky enough to see the knife coming but unlucky enough that you are too close (or in too close quarters) to get away.

We worked a bit on this scenario - a last ditch defense against an attack coming in from close quarters. The problem Oscar fond with the disarms he had learned was that it was fairly easy for the knife user to use body movement and their free arm to break free, make space, and continue the attack. What I found worked well for me (not saying this is the best method) was to a) get control of the knife arm, b) control the whole body - off-balancing them continuously and mixing in strikes like knees and head-butts, c) get them to a wall to limit their motion, d) take them down and disarm them. Note - part of controlling the whole body is arranging things so they can't just pass the knife to their free hand and stab you with that.

I'd offer specifics for how I worked to maintain control of the body and weapon arm, but it came out a bit different each time - less a matter of specific techniques and more a matter of general grappling experience.

This lead us to the sparring scenarios I discussed in my previous comment - the idea was that the fight had gone to the ground and only then do you see your opponent pulling out a knife. In this situation, you can't disengage quickly enough to avoid being stabbed, so you have to fight for control of the blade.

BTW - Brian, when I was working from bottom of mount I found myself defaulting to the defense you showed at the seminar I came to. (At least for the initial reversal - once I got on top the disarm depended on the energy my partner gave me.) Worked pretty well - I don't think I got cut once from that position.