How effective is sport BJJ (or GJJ) on the Street?

[FriedRice]

We could 'what if' this discussion all day, but to answer your question: Do what you have to do, to survive. If you have to clinch, take the guy down and bust his arm, do it. If you clinch, take him down, and choke him out, do it. If you can choke the guy out while standing, do it.

As I've said countless times, and I'll probably say many, many more times...I'm NOT anti BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc. Multi man attacks aside, if going to the ground is the only/best option, then do it. IMO though, intentionally going there, as in, going there for the sake of it, is crazy. Prolonging your stay on the ground, is crazy. But that's just me. Assess the situation and base your response accordingly.

It's a very legit argument that the current BJJ only training is not the best for street defense, but IMO, it's still a lot better than most of the unrealistic SD training, that claims to be so realistic. And mainly due to the fact that BJJ trains hard and spars hard, every single class. 30-45 minutes of sparring, every class at 80-100% power & intensity is a hell of a lot compared to TMA & SD classes, and will get you excellent strength & conditioning and somewhat, significant fighting mentality. Like DropBear said, if you're getting the crap beaten out of you standing, your best bet is to Grapple. I have a collection of all sorts of fights ranging from streetfights, prison fights, 1 on 1 up to 1 on 5-6, etc. About 700 videos and adding more everyday because I take SD very seriously. People in these videos, who are getting pummeled while standing, will almost always, resort to clinching and wrestling, regardless of whether they're trained for it or not.

If BJJ is all you've got, why shouldn't you use it right away, rather than striking poorly? Against someone untrained, I can easily hip throw them into the cement and on the way down, drop my knee into his face while grabbing an arm and break his arm at the elbows with a standing armlock in 3-5 seconds. Then I move onto the next guy if there's one. Even with a double leg TD, you can get him high enough to slam him down onto the concrete to hurt him pretty badly.

Out of my 700+ real fight videos, only 2-3 resulted in what seemed to be fatalities due to excessive and continual beatings. Then about another 2-3 where someone got KO'ed with 1-2 punches, drops backward and crack their head open on the cement, resulting in a coma or death afterward at the hospital. But most streetfights, or even prison fights....they get stopped by others once someone is KO'ed. Most times, the winner themselves would stop on their own and not continue to pulverize some dude's unconscious body. There's rarely such 10 on 1 scenarios nor fights to the death, as often romanticized by Self Defense people who don't understand BJJ nor MMA, thinking it's just for sport. And I'm not saying you're one of them especially since you also train BJJ.

 

[Mephisto]

I probably should have been more clear. When 2 BJJ of the same level spar, it certainly is at 80-100% power & intensity. No one wants to tap and lose. It's just training, but keeping score certainly does exist, just not admitted.

When 2 White Belts spar at such intensity, there's a lot of out of control movements due to their limited experience and knowledge of techniques with limbs flailing, thrashing, etc. But when 2 Black Belts spar, there's more control, but it's still at full power, except it's all compacted. The power is being exerted in the grips. The muscles are constantly straining, but the limbs are kept tight & compact; even though you don't see much movements. Even while waiting for the moment to explode, the muscle exertion is still constantly applied at this 100% power of whatever they have left in them.

Now a step above this in intensity, would be when 2 friendly rivals of the school spars. It will certainly be at 100%. And during the initial engagement, there's some serious attacking at 100% power. Same goes with our Competition Team training.

Now of course when a White Belt spars a Purple Belt, it would be a relaxing flow drill for the PB. And even the WB, he knows he has no chance and will tone it down to work on his techniques, but it's usually just survival for the WB.

You make a valid point, all BJJ sparring when both participants are at the same level is 80-100%. All of it, at all times. At my BJJ gym we had a device to measure the percentage at which you were rolling, and if you went below 80% you would get reprimanded, 3 times and you're kicked out of BJJ for a month! Sometimes they would let you slide if you went down to 79% though. OF course the black belts, 100% all the time, no doubt about it. Anyone who's experience differs from this probably wasn't training at a real BJJ gym.

We could 'what if' this discussion all day, but to answer your question: Do what you have to do, to survive. If you have to clinch, take the guy down and bust his arm, do it. If you clinch, take him down, and choke him out, do it. If you can choke the guy out while standing, do it.

As I've said countless times, and I'll probably say many, many more times...I'm NOT anti BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc. Multi man attacks aside, if going to the ground is the only/best option, then do it. IMO though, intentionally going there, as in, going there for the sake of it, is crazy. Prolonging your stay on the ground, is crazy. But that's just me. Assess the situation and base your response accordingly.

I don't think anyone here has advocated staying on the ground for an extended amount of time. I think the general consensus is to be cautious when on the ground and make it quick, which is quite possible if you're skilled on the ground.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't think enough people appreciate just how awesome the Guard is.

It allows you to gain a dominant position from a place where other MAs consider you utterly beaten. When I hear of other arts completely bypassing the Guard completely in their "ground fighting" classes, I just shake me head.

 

[FriedRice]

You make a valid point, all BJJ sparring when both participants are at the same level is 80-100%. All of it, at all times. At my BJJ gym we had a device to measure the percentage at which you were rolling, and if you went below 80% you would get reprimanded, 3 times and you're kicked out of BJJ for a month! Sometimes they would let you slide if you went down to 79% though. OF course the black belts, 100% all the time, no doubt about it. Anyone who's experience differs from this probably wasn't training at a real BJJ gym.

Oh sorry, didn't mean to hit a nerve. Maybe your gym also have a sensitive nerve scale too

 

[drop bear]

I don't think enough people appreciate just how awesome the Guard is.

It allows you to gain a dominant position from a place where other MAs consider you utterly beaten. When I hear of other arts completely bypassing the Guard completely in their "ground fighting" classes, I just shake me head.

See i train guard but wouldn't butt flop.

 

[elder999]

 

[Mephisto]

Oh sorry, didn't mean to hit a nerve. Maybe your gym also have a sensitive nerve scale too

 

[Mephisto]

Oh sorry, didn't mean to hit a nerve. Maybe your gym also have a sensitive nerve scale too

No you didn't strike a nerve, I was just being facetious. Just trying to illustrate how ridiculous saying everyone rolls at 80-100% is.

 

[MJS]

It's a very legit argument that the current BJJ only training is not the best for street defense, but IMO, it's still a lot better than most of the unrealistic SD training, that claims to be so realistic. And mainly due to the fact that BJJ trains hard and spars hard, every single class. 30-45 minutes of sparring, every class at 80-100% power & intensity is a hell of a lot compared to TMA & SD classes, and will get you excellent strength & conditioning and somewhat, significant fighting mentality. Like DropBear said, if you're getting the crap beaten out of you standing, your best bet is to Grapple. I have a collection of all sorts of fights ranging from streetfights, prison fights, 1 on 1 up to 1 on 5-6, etc. About 700 videos and adding more everyday because I take SD very seriously. People in these videos, who are getting pummeled while standing, will almost always, resort to clinching and wrestling, regardless of whether they're trained for it or not.

Agree! There is certainly a lot of BS out there, being taught as good SD. Sadly, many buy into it. I currently train Kyokushin. Sparring, at my school, is done on a regular basis, more so when there's a tournament, and there are quite a few coming up. That sparring, by far, is harder and more intense, than I've done when I was training Kenpo. Well, with the exception of one of my Kenpo teachers. I'd train privately with him, and when it was time to spar, it was hard. But yes, I tip my hat to the MMA guys, for their training methods, intensity, aliveness, etc. While I do like to take it easy some days, ie: toning the pace down a bit, I do enjoy a nice, hard training session.

If BJJ is all you've got, why shouldn't you use it right away, rather than striking poorly? Against someone untrained, I can easily hip throw them into the cement and on the way down, drop my knee into his face while grabbing an arm and break his arm at the elbows with a standing armlock in 3-5 seconds. Then I move onto the next guy if there's one. Even with a double leg TD, you can get him high enough to slam him down onto the concrete to hurt him pretty badly.

Of course, and you pretty much made my point. In your scenario, the situation is dealt with as quickly as possible. That's my point...deal with it, and get the hell out of dodge! Don't prolong something, if you don't have to. Bad guy throws a punch, clinch, takedown, whatever, choke, lock, break, and you're done. Hell, the throw alone could very well be enough to take the 'fight' out of the BG.

Out of my 700+ real fight videos, only 2-3 resulted in what seemed to be fatalities due to excessive and continual beatings. Then about another 2-3 where someone got KO'ed with 1-2 punches, drops backward and crack their head open on the cement, resulting in a coma or death afterward at the hospital. But most streetfights, or even prison fights....they get stopped by others once someone is KO'ed. Most times, the winner themselves would stop on their own and not continue to pulverize some dude's unconscious body. There's rarely such 10 on 1 scenarios nor fights to the death, as often romanticized by Self Defense people who don't understand BJJ nor MMA, thinking it's just for sport. And I'm not saying you're one of them especially since you also train BJJ.

Well, to this we agree.

 

[FriedRice]

Well, to this we agree.

Yes, I was agreeing with your points and was only expanding on them and it may have looked like I was disagreeing, but wasn't.

 

[FriedRice]

No you didn't strike a nerve, I was just being facetious. Just trying to illustrate how ridiculous saying everyone rolls at 80-100% is.

What's really funny here, is that you're explaining, my sarcasm of mimicking you.

 

[MJS]

Yes, I was agreeing with your points and was only expanding on them and it may have looked like I was disagreeing, but wasn't.

Oh I know, and I didn't take your post as disagreeing. I'm enjoying this thread. Lots of good points.

 

[Hanzou]

Here's a video that is pretty relevant to the topic;

Supposedly this guy is sport Bjj, and is a purple belt. Guy did like 3 subs in the span of 15 seconds.

 

[drop bear]

Here's a video that is pretty relevant to the topic;

Supposedly this guy is sport Bjj, and is a purple belt. Guy did like 3 subs in the span of 15 seconds.

And personally i didn't like his strategy. If you are the better grappler don't put yourself in a position where you have to choose between breaking a guys leg or getting punched in the face.

There is this thing we like to call knee ride.

 

[Buka]

Asshats.

 

[hoshin1600]

this may be a little slow moving but worth the watch.

 

[hoshin1600]

Hanzou's vid clip is adressed in this video at about 9 min in.

 

[drop bear]

The thing with mma is it does contain fight ending striking.

which bjj does not necessarily have. Now of course there is nothing stopping a beejer from acquiring fight ending striking if they want and many do.

 

[Hanzou]

And personally i didn't like his strategy. If you are the better grappler don't put yourself in a position where you have to choose between breaking a guys leg or getting punched in the face.

There is this thing we like to call knee ride.

To be fair, he had him in a rear naked, and that got interrupted by people trying to break it up. He then got him in a triangle, and that got broken up by people intervening. He got him in an arm bar, and that got interrupted too. Finally he was able to sweep him and get him in a leg lock. Considering he was sucker punched, I think he did a pretty good job overall. Despite being interrupted several times, he controlled the entire fight.

Compare that vid to this one;

I think some interesting comparisons can be made.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'll start out by saying that BJJ, like many martial arts, is mostly taught in a way that produces excellent fighters for the ring but does not prepare you for the street.

Let's put BJJ under the microscope without style bashing please.

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I think BJJ is great. But I don't understand how BJJ principles can't be almost immediately adapted to street self defense. To the extent that the street attacks are similar to what MMA fighters encounter in structure, what they see in the Cage.
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Is the way most BJJ taught RBSD as mentors here are training? heck No.... Same goes for the karate I train. Can I use my karate to KO a bully who's shoving me around, threatening me? Yes or No?