sinthetik_mistik
Purple Belt
yeah i'm no expert in grappling but if you are on the receiving end of a ground'n'pound, biting aint gonna do you s***
How effective is sport BJJ (or GJJ) on the Street?
- Thread starter K-man
- Start date
sinthetik_mistik
Purple Belt
unless you're like that African tribesman in Ace Ventura When Nature Calls who bit Ace's fist after Ace threw a punch at him lol! just kidding
Hanzou,
No one is saying that biting negates skilled grappling but it can make the situation tenuous and potentially dangerous for a skilled grappler or even perilous if he looks at it as a freebie.
Instead, what I am saying is that you better take it into consideration and have a game plan if it happens or how to prevent it in the first place. It can be very dangerous to you if you do not.
Also, the guard is a neutral position. It can be an advantageous position against the right person but it could also be an incredibly poor choice to choose in a moment of violence against the wrong person or in the wrong setting. Anytime you are on your back/side in guard you are working to improve your position. Sure there are solid submissions those submissions skill sets do not make it a dominant position like the mount, back, crossbody, etc. I have a strong guard and open guard game and can play the rubber guard, mission control, etc. but I sure as heck do not want to be in it on the street. I would much rather be in the mount, back, crossbody, etc. Or even better standing up with a weapon in my hand if warranted. The guard is a neutral position in the BJJ hierarchy of positions. Sure it can be dangerous but.... it can be dangerous to be in it as well.
Funny thing is I know people (ie. Collegiate athletes from a major university) with no training that would dominate most average BJJ guys in their guard based on their attributes alone. (purple belts and lower) I know a powerful man that your guard, my guard and probably even Tony's guard would be of little help. (Tony would probably fair better just because of his size) Yet, when you are dealing with a 7 foot 300lb man being on your back is just plain going to suck. He is not even the scariest person attribute wise that I know. That guy is just 6 foot 2 but probably about 4 feet across and has all functional strength from his job. Crazy strength.
There is always a counter, always an opening, always someone whose attributes outmatch yours and may beat your training, etc. Take into consideration these things and do not be so dismissive. It is like you read the BJJ bible and everything else is wrong. You may find that the bible you are currently reading may not be all you believed it was down the road. Understand that BJJ has a very small market on violence. It is exceptionally good at what it does but.... it isn't the end all be all. If it was, a pure BJJ stylist could still dominate in MMA. Those day's are long gone. BJJ stylists need BJJ, some wrestling training, Striking, etc. just to be competitive. There is a whole big world of martial training out there beyond BJJ. Take a look and you may find that there is a lot more you could add to your skill sets! Since you love competitive martial systems why not add some Muay Thai for striking. Plus explore some non-competitive skills like firearms and blade training to round out your skill sets. That may open a whole new world for you!
No one is saying that biting negates skilled grappling but it can make the situation tenuous and potentially dangerous for a skilled grappler or even perilous if he looks at it as a freebie.
Instead, what I am saying is that you better take it into consideration and have a game plan if it happens or how to prevent it in the first place. It can be very dangerous to you if you do not. Also, the guard is a neutral position. It can be an advantageous position against the right person but it could also be an incredibly poor choice to choose in a moment of violence against the wrong person or in the wrong setting. Anytime you are on your back/side in guard you are working to improve your position. Sure there are solid submissions those submissions skill sets do not make it a dominant position like the mount, back, crossbody, etc. I have a strong guard and open guard game and can play the rubber guard, mission control, etc. but I sure as heck do not want to be in it on the street. I would much rather be in the mount, back, crossbody, etc. Or even better standing up with a weapon in my hand if warranted. The guard is a neutral position in the BJJ hierarchy of positions. Sure it can be dangerous but.... it can be dangerous to be in it as well.
Funny thing is I know people (ie. Collegiate athletes from a major university) with no training that would dominate most average BJJ guys in their guard based on their attributes alone. (purple belts and lower) I know a powerful man that your guard, my guard and probably even Tony's guard would be of little help. (Tony would probably fair better just because of his size) Yet, when you are dealing with a 7 foot 300lb man being on your back is just plain going to suck. He is not even the scariest person attribute wise that I know. That guy is just 6 foot 2 but probably about 4 feet across and has all functional strength from his job. Crazy strength.
There is always a counter, always an opening, always someone whose attributes outmatch yours and may beat your training, etc. Take into consideration these things and do not be so dismissive. It is like you read the BJJ bible and everything else is wrong. You may find that the bible you are currently reading may not be all you believed it was down the road. Understand that BJJ has a very small market on violence. It is exceptionally good at what it does but.... it isn't the end all be all. If it was, a pure BJJ stylist could still dominate in MMA. Those day's are long gone. BJJ stylists need BJJ, some wrestling training, Striking, etc. just to be competitive. There is a whole big world of martial training out there beyond BJJ. Take a look and you may find that there is a lot more you could add to your skill sets! Since you love competitive martial systems why not add some Muay Thai for striking. Plus explore some non-competitive skills like firearms and blade training to round out your skill sets. That may open a whole new world for you!
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
Hanzou,
No one is saying that biting negates skilled grappling but it can make the situation tenuous and potentially dangerous for a skilled grappler or even perilous if he looks at it as a freebie.
Biting negating grappling was the argument that started this discussion Brian, as well as the meaning behind that video that Elder posted.
Frankly that can be said about any position.
Not always. In some cases ending the confrontation from that position is the more favorable option. If I can end the fight with a triangle choke, why would I perform a sweep to continue the encounter?
I said that the guard is a dominant position, not the most dominant position. There is a difference.
Neutral means that you both have equal footing. Two people squaring off against each other is a neutral position. Two Judoka gripping opposing lapel and sleeves is a neutral position. One person having their movement restricted and attempting to escape while the other is attacking posture and looking for submissions and sweeps is not a neutral position.
Again, the same can be said about any position. A 100lb person could probably get bench pressed off that guy while attempting side mount. Is side mount not a dominant position because some huge guy can power you out of it? I saw a guy get smashed by a larger guy while in back mount. He got knocked out cold from the impact. Is back mount now not a superior position?
Hey, I have no problem stating that BJJ has weaknesses. I'm simply saying that biting isn't one of them, and attempting to bite someone while in their guard is a pretty dumb thing to do. I'm pretty sure I asked exactly how you can bite someone while in their guard. The only solid answer I got was from Drop Bear, and that was during a pass attempt. I'm still waiting for yours.
sinthetik_mistik
Purple Belt
yeah i know a BJJ artist who can bench press 350 pounds. now that is a formidable combination
"The guard" covers a lot of territory. If we're talking about your standard basic closed guard, I would rate bottom of the guard as neutral at best. I teach my students that if the fight goes to the ground, they want to be on top. In real life you can't always manage that. The other guy might be bigger, stronger, a better wrestler, or just catch you by surprise and end up on top. That's where the guard comes in - as an equalizer so that the fighter on the bottom can stay in the fight and maintain offense as well as defense.
Of course, if you are a skilled ground fighter and your opponent is not, then a neutral ground position (such as guard) can still be dominant for you. That's not because the guard is a superior position. It's because you're on the ground and only one of you knows how to fight there. If both combatants are equally skilled on the ground, then the guard is no better than neutral for the guy on bottom. In MMA, the odds are slightly in favor of the guy on top of guard.
(There are specific configurations within guard which can be advantageous. If I have you in full-fledged Williams guard with the correct angle off to the side, then I am definitely winning at the moment.)
Of course that's just my opinion. However, I've heard the same thing from a lot of much more senior and accomplished BJJ black belts.)
Of course, if you are a skilled ground fighter and your opponent is not, then a neutral ground position (such as guard) can still be dominant for you. That's not because the guard is a superior position. It's because you're on the ground and only one of you knows how to fight there. If both combatants are equally skilled on the ground, then the guard is no better than neutral for the guy on bottom. In MMA, the odds are slightly in favor of the guy on top of guard.
(There are specific configurations within guard which can be advantageous. If I have you in full-fledged Williams guard with the correct angle off to the side, then I am definitely winning at the moment.)
Of course that's just my opinion. However, I've heard the same thing from a lot of much more senior and accomplished BJJ black belts.)
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Yeah, I've heard similar arguments, but they really don't make much sense. I think the ruleset in MMA pushes the guard into a weaker position for a variety of reasons. Despite that, there's been plenty of fighters in MMA who have employed guards to submit people.
In Bjj itself, its pretty clearly a position of advantage, despite being on the back.
For example, the back mount is considered a dominant position, but that mount can easily place you on your back, and have your arms and legs completely wrapped up around your opponent, with less capability to sweep into something else if the situation warrants it.
You can get out of side mount in a variety of ways, and you can get easily submitted or attacked from that position. However, no one would argue that that's a dominant position.
If you're not good in the top mount, side mount, or back mount against a superior fighter, you'll get jacked up just as easily if you had that fighter in a weak guard.
On the same token, I consider the half guard to be a neutral position. From there, both parties have a pretty equal chance to damage each other, and movement is restricted on both sides. I simply don't view a closed guard, or its myriad of variations to be neutral. The person on the bottom simply has too much control, and too much opportunity to dismantle the person on top. So much so in fact, that many advocate to focus on passing the guard only, and to not attempt to attack someone while in their guard.
In Bjj itself, its pretty clearly a position of advantage, despite being on the back.
For example, the back mount is considered a dominant position, but that mount can easily place you on your back, and have your arms and legs completely wrapped up around your opponent, with less capability to sweep into something else if the situation warrants it.
You can get out of side mount in a variety of ways, and you can get easily submitted or attacked from that position. However, no one would argue that that's a dominant position.
If you're not good in the top mount, side mount, or back mount against a superior fighter, you'll get jacked up just as easily if you had that fighter in a weak guard.
On the same token, I consider the half guard to be a neutral position. From there, both parties have a pretty equal chance to damage each other, and movement is restricted on both sides. I simply don't view a closed guard, or its myriad of variations to be neutral. The person on the bottom simply has too much control, and too much opportunity to dismantle the person on top. So much so in fact, that many advocate to focus on passing the guard only, and to not attempt to attack someone while in their guard.
Hanzou,
In the guard and in other positions there are plenty of places where someone could bite you all they have to do is have their head close enough to your body at any position while grappling. Watch the next time you roll and see how many times some ones face is close to you or on your body. Now, I know and you know that there are many times when some ones head/face is near or pressed against our skin when grappling. I usually do not try to spoon feed people because I believe you should learn some of these things on your own. If some one is in your guard with their hands on your biceps and they put their face on your belly they can bite you. It is better if they slightly turn to the side and bite you along your rib cage. If some one is in your guard and they wrap their arm around your head they can then place their face into your neck. If you pull someone in deep with your guard trying to negate their ability to punch you their head will invariably be right by your neck and guess what they can bite you. These are really simple things to do and as such if you are in a physical encounter you should be aware of them. No different than you should be aware of where someone could head butt you. Anytime you would wish to see how the above can be done my door is always open to teach and I will be happy to show you..
In the guard and in other positions there are plenty of places where someone could bite you all they have to do is have their head close enough to your body at any position while grappling. Watch the next time you roll and see how many times some ones face is close to you or on your body. Now, I know and you know that there are many times when some ones head/face is near or pressed against our skin when grappling. I usually do not try to spoon feed people because I believe you should learn some of these things on your own. If some one is in your guard with their hands on your biceps and they put their face on your belly they can bite you. It is better if they slightly turn to the side and bite you along your rib cage. If some one is in your guard and they wrap their arm around your head they can then place their face into your neck. If you pull someone in deep with your guard trying to negate their ability to punch you their head will invariably be right by your neck and guess what they can bite you. These are really simple things to do and as such if you are in a physical encounter you should be aware of them. No different than you should be aware of where someone could head butt you. Anytime you would wish to see how the above can be done my door is always open to teach and I will be happy to show you..
By the way I have opened up more than a few peoples eyes by showing them this. That includes BJJ instructors, wrestlers and other grapplers as well. It really is not rocket science.
Saying all that as I have said before it is not what I would consider a "go to" move because of the blood in the mouth issue. However, in a pinch it could be really useful!
Saying all that as I have said before it is not what I would consider a "go to" move because of the blood in the mouth issue. However, in a pinch it could be really useful!
FriedRice
Master Black Belt
Hanzou,
No one is saying that biting negates skilled grappling but it can make the situation tenuous and potentially dangerous for a skilled grappler or even perilous if he looks at it as a freebie.
Also, the guard is a neutral position. It can be an advantageous position against the right person but it could also be an incredibly poor choice to choose in a moment of violence against the wrong person or in the wrong setting.
A "skilled grappler" ain't gonna PULL GUARD on you in the street. What the hell for? A "skilled grappler", will pick you up, and slam you, preferably head first, into the cement....along with his entire body weight and generated momentum, simultaneously crashing down on top of you as you strike the cement. This hurts like hell on a judo mat, that's elevated with used automobile tires underneath, a wooden platform and 3-4 layers of thick matting on top. So imagine how it would be on the cement.
If you're not KO'ed yet, after this slam, this "skilled grappler" is going to mount you and start raining punches downward until you're good and bloodied. He doesn't even have to be a good striker, as this dominant position with optimum leverage of punches raining downward to your head.....sandwiched between the cement and healthy servings of knuckle sandwiches...makes even the stinkiest punches of a grappler, significant in causing damage. But much, much worse, are the downward elbows.
And biting, well, I really don't need to pay anyone to teach me how to bite someone. I'd bite too if I had no other way out. But in general, it's not going to cause that much damage (if any) considering what's available to bite at. If someone better than me, had me in a full mount and pulverizing my face into the concrete....I'd be more worried about the little head movement that I'm afforded to dodge the strikes while trying to escape....rather than commit my teeth to biting him, and therefore, my head is now completely stationary for him to drop elbows after elbows onto my temple, back of the head, spine, etc. What can I bite at while being fully mounted? Maybe the tip of his inner thigh, near his knee? That ain't gonna hurt him if he was just sitting around watching TV so imagine the amount of adrenaline pumped up during a fight to further not feel anything. I certainly can't bite at his testicles, unless I have a 12" neck or something.
Fried Rice,
I am a skilled grappler. BJJ and Wrestling experience. Well aware of what grappling can do as I do it everyday!
I am also an advocate for training in BJJ and recommend it regularly. However, as with any system you need to explore it's weaknesses as well.
I am a skilled grappler. BJJ and Wrestling experience. Well aware of what grappling can do as I do it everyday!
I am also an advocate for training in BJJ and recommend it regularly. However, as with any system you need to explore it's weaknesses as well.
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Danny T
Senior Master
I truly dislike being the one to break this to you Brian but your BJJ is obviously lacking. You can not be a skilled grappler for you still rely on utilizing punching, weapons, and now Biting!!Fried Rice,
I am a skilled grappler. BJJ and Wrestling experience. Well aware of what grappling can do as I do it everyday!
Weakness?? In BJJ? Blasphemy!! So embarrassing and disappointed.
FriedRice
Master Black Belt
Fried Rice,
I am a skilled grappler. BJJ and Wrestling experience. Well aware of what grappling can do as I do it everyday!
Cool, I didn't read the rest of your post, so my mistake.
The main weakness of being a grappler only, is probably not being used to getting punched in the face for real and repeatedly. This is the case when I punch and move, pure BJJ guys from Black Belts and down as they try to take me down.
Getting bitten, in my opinion, is not that big of a deal. Adrenaline takes care of most to all of the pain. The human biting power is not really that powerful to begin with. Bites to the arms, legs, abs, etc. aren't big deals. What is a big deal is the Biter's arm that's about to get popped off at the elbow. UFC fighters who spends thousands of hours getting their heads bashed in as part of regular training, rarely quit from a beatdown and will almost always protest stoppages....but will almost always tap when in an armbar......for the past 20+ years of MMA.
There's a video of a fat guy who bit off a chunk of another dude's ear in a streetfight on YouTube. The video panned to a piece of his ear, all bloody, on the ground. The guy with the bit off ear had no problem continuing the fight, but the cops came and tasered him as I recalled (as they didn't see the who started it and thought he was the aggressor).
It'll probably hurt more afterward, but the biggest risk is probably, infection; but easily remedied with antibiotics.
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
Can that really be considered a weakness of Bjj when all it requires to negate it is minor adjustments to positioning? Further, attempting to bite someone leads to leaving yourself open to getting caught. For example, going for an arm behind my neck while in my guard is a great way to get arm barred or triangled way before you get close enough to bite the neck.
In the end, it's a fool-hardy proposition. You're better off trying to punch your way out.
FriedRice
Master Black Belt
Yeah, if I have the armbar locked in and cranking, it's only about 1 second later that the pain on the elbow joint will be excruciating. The Biter's mouth will release the bite on my inner thigh in order to scream. But hell....even if the armbar wasn't locked in.....and this was in a dark alley with no signs of cameras around and in a mystical land such as Flea Bottom of Westeros...forget the armbar now.... I think I'll just reach down and take an eyeball home for biting.
Danny T
Senior Master
Big bites don't hurt, it is the 1/4 to 1/2 that tears out hunks of flesh.
UFC fighters tap due to the pay check, training time loss, and being able to get another fight in a short period for another pay check.
A KO gets you 60 day suspension then back to training and fighting in under 6 months. A broken arm or elbow 6 months then back to training or even longer or possible career ending.
FriedRice
Master Black Belt
These don't hurt that much neither during a fight. Most experienced fighters shouldn't have a problem with any of these bites with maybe the exceptions of bites to the genitals, which is also carries a huge shock factor, NPI.
No, it's both but mostly due to pain and other reasons. Getting your head bashed in, while painful, is not as clear and evident as having an arm trapped and about to be broken. And it's frivolous to keep the fight going by not tapping and allowing your arm to break; as afterward, the fight would be even more so of a blood bath, trying to fight with dangling, broken at the elbow, arm.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Are we fighting with no clothes on or something?
I tend to go outside of my home wearing a shirt and pants. In the colder months, I'm wearing layers of clothing. I have serious doubts that someone can bite through a jacket, a cotton shirt, a sweater, or denim jeans. Further, you're going to feel the bite down even if they don't get through the clothes, and you'll respond accordingly. Probably by elbowing them in the face repeatedly.
Again, attempting to bite someone while in an inferior position is a pretty dumb thing to do. As Drop Bear stated, if you know how grappling works, you can probably use it as an escape hatch to escape the grips of a superior grappler. However, if you have zero grappling knowledge and wind up on the bottom of a side mount and attempt to bite someone's forearm, you're going to get your face bashed in.
One thing we do agree on Hanzou is that having a good grappling base in your training is very important for personal protection!
Danny T
Senior Master
Possibility. At the beach maybe. Saw a couple of videos of the guys at Gracie Academy doing some training and explaining what they were doing on a beach.
Ok, your grappling skill is so good you will never have any exposure to bites, strikes, pushes, kicks, punches, pokes or any other action.
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