Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[Alan0354]

I practiced 8 months of Judo and I learn some WC. This is my opinion:

Judo definitely is very limited in today's standard but so are the TMA like WC. Let's say we compare them with the ASSUMPTION they ONLY KNOW THEIR OWN STYLE and no more(like in the older days where people did not mix MA).

I would say in point sparring where you don't hit with full force, just touching. WC will make a fool out of Judo.

BUT in real fight or full contact like in UFC, I'd put my bet on Judo. Again, you have to assume strikers do NOT know any take down defense like in the older days. Striker only have ONE chance to hit the Judo guy before the Judo grab hold of him and take him down. There is no double in my mind the striker will go flying. This means the striker has to knock the Judo guy out before the Judo guy get hold of him.

It's funny people talks as if they can hit a person and knock them out as if the opponent is standing there, let him get to optimal distance and strike. The judo guy is going to move, chances of knocking the Judo guy out in one hit is very very small. That's the end of the striker. It is really funny to hear people talk like " You come at me like this, then I just do that and beat you!!!" Like talking fight on paper, that you have all the time to think, analyze and counter. In real fight, you don't have the time. Or "if I hit you at the right distance where I can synchronize my body to punch you, I'll drop you in one punch!!". As if the opponent is going to stand there holding still waiting for you to hit him at optimal distance and wait for you to hit.

Particular for WC, they don't hit that hard if they follow the traditional style. My bet definitely on Judo. I take for granted I know how to break the fall and being thrown on the ground might not hurt me. But again, I am talking about two people that ONLY know their respective style, the striker won't know how to fall, he'll be in deep dodo!!!

Recall in UFC2, there's a Judo guy, he sure beat up the strikers. He lost to Royce Gracie.

JMHO from knowing some of both style.



LATE EDIT:

My assumption is both fighters train to the same level of skill in their respective style. Of cause an expert striker is going to beat the novice judo guy for sure. You have to match the same level skill.

 

[caped crusader]

My bet definitely on Judo.

nice post Alan. I know that sometimes in a fight people grab on to you if they can, just a reaction. A fight can have a grappling phase very quickly. an example i saw a guy i knew in scotland. was a well built guy and strong. Another guy stood next to him attacked him in a bar, now i saw he knew it and was very fast and grappled the guy down between his legs. He just held the guy there had is face held and pounded his face like a hammer.
Grappling or wrestling has always been around .. as i wrote in one thread even as kids you "wrestled". Definetly a useful skill.

Side note: I also saw a small framed guy we called sticky in the army take down a big rugby/Tug of war guy. We were waiting to go on an early morning "Beasting" run and people were larking around before it. The Big guy who was not a bully but a bit loud was gassing off... Sticky .. we called him that cause his name was Bunn, English sticky Bunn .
quickly got him into a choke. He was into Judo before the Army. was not a nasty fight or anything as we lived on the same floor together and both were sort of friends. Just showed skill and the Bigger guy had to submit.
sticky was built like a match. small boned but not frail but small.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's been happening for awhile;

International Judo Federation Prohibits Judo Athletes To Compete in BJJ & other Grappling Competitions

The IJF International Judo Federation has just sent an email to all its official schools worldwide with a warning: ranked Judo athletes may not participate in other grappling competitions. The email comes from the Federation president with the attachment coming from the International Judo...

www.bjjee.com

French Judo Federation: Immediate Ban for all Judokas Teaching MMA

This week it was announced that the European Judo Championships , scheduled for April in Glasgow, would not take place in the Scottish city. This occurred only eight weeks before the event is due to take place following a row over a sponsorship agreement with the Ultimate Fighting Championship...

www.bjjee.com

Wow.

 

[caped crusader]

Wow.

reminds me of Tomiki Aikido and the Aikikai . this is not unusual though it´s like bodybuilders can´t compete in other organisations.

 

[caped crusader]

It´s always about Money & their organisation. Membership Fees.... etc ...etc....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Particular for WC, they don't hit that hard if they follow the traditional style.

The praying mantis system also has this issue. If you pull your punch back before you send your punch all the way through your opponent's body, your punch will not generate enough power compare to those punch that go through your opponent's body.

This is easy to prove. When you stand in front of a heavy bag, if you aim your punch behind the heavy bag, you will generate more power than you just aim the surface of that heavy bag.

The fast punches (such as the praying mantis 1 step 3 punches) has this issue. There is nothing wrong about this. It's just a trade off between power and speed.

When a mosquito flies in front of you and you try to use both hand to smash it, you may think about speed more than power at that moment. But to push a car, the power is more important than speed.

In the following clips, you can see his punches are not as fast as the WC chain punches, but when he punches, his fist, arm, body, and back shoulder all form a perfect straight line. That give him a chance to generate the maximum punch power with his body structure.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

in point sparring where you don't hit with full force,

It's so funny that the more that you do "point sparring", the less that you will understand the "power generation".

This is the main issue for the striking art. There is no solution for this.

 

[caped crusader]

I like it here learning also about other styles from say china. anyone know Choy Lay Fut? long swinging punches? I saw it one time and tried it but just most chinese styles are too much fancy stuff for me. apart from wing chun.

 

[Alan0354]

nice post Alan. I know that sometimes in a fight people grab on to you if they can, just a reaction. A fight can have a grappling phase very quickly. an example i saw a guy i knew in scotland. was a well built guy and strong. Another guy stood next to him attacked him in a bar, now i saw he knew it and was very fast and grappled the guy down between his legs. He just held the guy there had is face held and pounded his face like a hammer.
Grappling or wrestling has always been around .. as i wrote in one thread even as kids you "wrestled". Definetly a useful skill.

Side note: I also saw a small framed guy we called sticky in the army take down a big rugby/Tug of war guy. We were waiting to go on an early morning "Beasting" run and people were larking around before it. The Big guy who was not a bully but a bit loud was gassing off... Sticky .. we called him that cause his name was Bunn, English sticky Bunn .
quickly got him into a choke. He was into Judo before the Army. was not a nasty fight or anything as we lived on the same floor together and both were sort of friends. Just showed skill and the Bigger guy had to submit.
sticky was built like a match. small boned but not frail but small.

nice post Alan. I know that sometimes in a fight people grab on to you if they can, just a reaction. A fight can have a grappling phase very quickly. an example i saw a guy i knew in scotland. was a well built guy and strong. Another guy stood next to him attacked him in a bar, now i saw he knew it and was very fast and grappled the guy down between his legs. He just held the guy there had is face held and pounded his face like a hammer.
Grappling or wrestling has always been around .. as i wrote in one thread even as kids you "wrestled". Definetly a useful skill.

Side note: I also saw a small framed guy we called sticky in the army take down a big rugby/Tug of war guy. We were waiting to go on an early morning "Beasting" run and people were larking around before it. The Big guy who was not a bully but a bit loud was gassing off... Sticky .. we called him that cause his name was Bunn, English sticky Bunn .
quickly got him into a choke. He was into Judo before the Army. was not a nasty fight or anything as we lived on the same floor together and both were sort of friends. Just showed skill and the Bigger guy had to submit.
sticky was built like a match. small boned but not frail but small.

I edited my post, I assume the two guys are at the same skill level. Of cause in real life, you can have one beginner and one expert, or one talented and one dummy. There's no way to compare like that.

Like I was giving example the two guys that qualified to go into the octagon already.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

most chinese styles are too much fancy stuff for me. apart from wing chun.

Those fancy stuff may not be used in fighting, but are used to train your body to achieve certain flexibility.

 

[Alan0354]

It's so funny that the more that you do "point sparring", the less that you will understand the "power generation".

This is the main issue for the striking art. There is no solution for this.

Point sparring is still a whole lot better than doing forms and two people drills.

I don't want to do full contact stuffs, I value my brain, I still have electronics to design, physics to study.

You get power by punching heavy bags, no other way around this. I hang two heavy bags, I hit one, turn and hit the other, let the bags move so when I turn, I have to acquire the distance to hit. Bags will move quite a bit if you combine punching and kicking. That's when you learn dynamically acquire distance and angle.

Those long soft bags that drag on the floor or have people holding the bag is useless. You don't get to learn in the moving situation.

 

[Hanzou]

I practiced 8 months of Judo and I learn some WC. This is my opinion:

Judo definitely is very limited in today's standard but so are the TMA like WC. Let's say we compare them with the ASSUMPTION they ONLY KNOW THEIR OWN STYLE and no more(like in the older days where people did not mix MA).

I would say in point sparring where you don't hit with full force, just touching. WC will make a fool out of Judo.

BUT in real fight or full contact like in UFC, I'd put my bet on Judo. Again, you have to assume strikers do NOT know any take down defense like in the older days. Striker only have ONE chance to hit the Judo guy before the Judo grab hold of him and take him down. There is no double in my mind the striker will go flying. This means the striker has to knock the Judo guy out before the Judo guy get hold of him.

It's funny people talks as if they can hit a person and knock them out as if the opponent is standing there, let him get to optimal distance and strike. The judo guy is going to move, chances of knocking the Judo guy out in one hit is very very small. That's the end of the striker. It is really funny to hear people talk like " You come at me like this, then I just do that and beat you!!!" Like talking fight on paper, that you have all the time to think, analyze and counter. In real fight, you don't have the time. Or "if I hit you at the right distance where I can synchronize my body to punch you, I'll drop you in one punch!!". As if the opponent is going to stand there holding still waiting for you to hit him at optimal distance and wait for you to hit.

Particular for WC, they don't hit that hard if they follow the traditional style. My bet definitely on Judo. I take for granted I know how to break the fall and being thrown on the ground might not hurt me. But again, I am talking about two people that ONLY know their respective style, the striker won't know how to fall, he'll be in deep dodo!!!

Recall in UFC2, there's a Judo guy, he sure beat up the strikers. He lost to Royce Gracie.

JMHO from knowing some of both style.



LATE EDIT:

My assumption is both fighters train to the same level of skill in their respective style. Of cause an expert striker is going to beat the novice judo guy for sure. You have to match the same level skill.

This is assuming a lot of things. If you're talking about classic Judo, I can buy this. If you're talking about modern Judo where people aren't being taught more simple takedowns like single and double legs, the Judoka is going to run into some issues in the self defense realm. Interestingly, it's the same issues Judoka have run into in MMA realm. For starters, you're going to need a high level Judoka to pull off even the most basic throw against a resisting opponent not in a gi. If you're a few years in Judo and going against someone wearing a t-shirt, good luck. If you look at self defense-based BJJ, collar and sleeve grips aren't used. It's almost entirely body locks. If you look at competitive no-gi BJJ and MMA, they use wrestling instead. There's a reason for that.

Another issue that you run into here in the states is if you're fighting a collegiate or even HS wrestler, a former football player, or someone who has a significant size advantage over you; The wrestler is going to give you significant problems because they're more than likely a better grappler than you are, even if you're a black belt. Despite Judo's marketing, someone with a significant size advantage is also going to pose a problem if they aren't wearing significant clothing material.

Let's say you're successful and you manage to throw them, there's this belief that if you toss someone onto concrete, it'll knock someone out or even kill them. That's definitely possible, but it's also very possible that the throw/takedown doesn't knock them out. You can see this here in multiple cases where wrestling is being used for self defense, and people are slammed into concrete and they bounce right back up and attack the wrestler again;

Don't get me wrong, Judo has its benefits. However, I believe that its consistent limitations in the grappling realm have hampered its overall effectiveness. The lack of no-gi, leglocks, leg attacks, shoulder attacks, wrist locks, Guard, and other stuff limit its self defense effectiveness overall.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The lack of no-gi, leglocks, leg attacks, shoulder attacks, wrist locks, Guard, and other stuff limit its self defense effectiveness overall.

Agree with you on this. To switch from gi to no-gi is not an easy task. When I suggest no-gi training in a Judo forum, everybody in that forum was mad at me and treated me as an anti-Judo guy.

Besides the no-gi issue, if one doesn't train his throwing skill in a fist flying environment, his throwing skill will not be realistic.

 

[Hanzou]

Agree with you on this. To switch from gi to no-gi is not an easy task. When I suggest no-gi training in a Judo forum, everybody in that forum was mad at me and treated me as an anti-Judo guy.

That really doesn't surprise me one bit.

 

[Alan0354]

This is assuming a lot of things. If you're talking about classic Judo, I can buy this. If you're talking about modern Judo where people aren't being taught more simple takedowns like single and double legs, the Judoka is going to run into some issues in the self defense realm. Interestingly, it's the same issues Judoka have run into in MMA realm. For starters, you're going to need a high level Judoka to pull off even the most basic throw against a resisting opponent not in a gi. If you're a few years in Judo and going against someone wearing a t-shirt, good luck. If you look at self defense-based BJJ, collar and sleeve grips aren't used. It's almost entirely body locks. If you look at competitive no-gi BJJ and MMA, they use wrestling instead. There's a reason for that.

Another issue that you run into here in the states is if you're fighting a collegiate or even HS wrestler, a former football player, or someone who has a significant size advantage over you; The wrestler is going to give you significant problems because they're more than likely a better grappler than you are, even if you're a black belt. Despite Judo's marketing, someone with a significant size advantage is also going to pose a problem if they aren't wearing significant clothing material.

Let's say you're successful and you manage to throw them, there's this belief that if you toss someone onto concrete, it'll knock someone out or even kill them. That's definitely possible, but it's also very possible that the throw/takedown doesn't knock them out. You can see this here in multiple cases where wrestling is being used for self defense, and people are slammed into concrete and they bounce right back up and attack the wrestler again;

Don't get me wrong, Judo has its benefits. However, I believe that its consistent limitations in the grappling realm have hampered its overall effectiveness. The lack of no-gi, leglocks, leg attacks, shoulder attacks, wrist locks, Guard, and other stuff limit its self defense effectiveness overall.

My post was responding to the few previous posts saying Judo is not that good. I am only saying that it's not that bad if compare to TCMA that are striking only.

Wrestling and BJJ are on the TOP of the food chain of fighting arts, you don't talk about them in the same breath with the lower ones that are swimming close to the bottom. If I were 40 years younger, I would learn wrestling or BJJ together with Mauythai, forget TKD or other TMA. Some Judo is good for falling at old age, it is valuable.

You can still do something without the gi in Judo, limited, but you still can. You can still grab the person and do hip throw, or trip them backwards. I forgot all the names already.

 

[caped crusader]

Those fancy stuff may not be used in fighting, but are used to train your body to achieve certain flexibility.

Ok.

 

[Hanzou]

My post was responding to the few previous posts saying Judo is not that good. I am only saying that it's not that bad if compare to TCMA that are striking only.

Wrestling and BJJ are on the TOP of the food chain of fighting arts, you don't talk about them in the same breath with the lower ones that are swimming close to the bottom.

Yeah, like I said, I'm not disparaging Judo at all, it has its place (though its kind of interchangeable with wrestling). However, their rules have really neutered the MA, and that's an example of how competition can ruin a perfectly legit martial art. Judo is becoming a shell of its true self, and a lot of Judoka are starting to feel it. Lucky for them, Bjj welcomes them and their skills with open arms.

You can still do something without the gi in Judo, limited, but you still can. You can still grab the person and do hip throw, or trip them backwards. I forgot all the names already.

Hip throws are questionable in SD situations. I was always taught to avoid them unless absolutely necessary. With the trip backwards, are you talking about Osto Gari? That's a solid, and low risk takedown that can lead directly to an armbar. I think that's just fine for self defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I like it here learning also about other styles from say china. anyone know Choy Lay Fut? long swinging punches? I saw it one time and tried it but just most chinese styles are too much fancy stuff for me. apart from wing chun.

In general, if you want to ask something this far off-topic from the thread, you'll get more views and replies (and divert the existing thread less) by posting a new thread.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Point sparring is still a whole lot better than doing forms and two people drills.

I don't want to do full contact stuffs, I value my brain, I still have electronics to design, physics to study.

You get power by punching heavy bags, no other way around this. I hang two heavy bags, I hit one, turn and hit the other, let the bags move so when I turn, I have to acquire the distance to hit. Bags will move quite a bit if you combine punching and kicking. That's when you learn dynamically acquire distance and angle.

Those long soft bags that drag on the floor or have people holding the bag is useless. You don't get to learn in the moving situation.

Some kinds of sparring can actually create bad habits, and it'd be arguable whether those habits are better or worse than never sparring. I've had multiple students come to me with a "tag and back away" approach to sparring, where as soon as they were able to make some contact (even if it was at the extreme end of their reach, so no power possible), they'd back off and wait for the response.

This goes to Steve's point about mixing up the rulesets. Point sparring has some definite benefits. By itself, it has distinct drawbacks that need to be offset somewhere else in training. This is true of pretty much all training elements and rulesets - they all have some sort of compromise that can be offset in training to varying degrees.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agree with you on this. To switch from gi to no-gi is not an easy task. When I suggest no-gi training in a Judo forum, everybody in that forum was mad at me and treated me as an anti-Judo guy.

Besides the no-gi issue, if one doesn't train his throwing skill in a fist flying environment, his throwing skill will not be realistic.

It might be that those folks are only really interested in training for Judo competition, in which case the no-gi training has limited value.