How effective is sport BJJ (or GJJ) on the Street?

[Mephisto]

Here we get into a fundamental fact of human psychology: people are bad at evaluating risk.

Terrorist attacks, mass shootings, and home invasions by armed gangs make the news because they are scary and unusual. Statistically speaking, however, you are more likely to be killed by lightning than by a terrorist. If you are spending thousands of hours of hard training because you are afraid of a highly unlikely event that you will a) probably never encounter in your life and b) would have only a small chance of successfully handling with your martial arts training, then that is a poor allocation of your available resources.

If you are that determined to protect yourself and your family, you are better off devoting that time and energy and money towards the factors that are actually likely to kill you, i.e.:

Improve your diet and exercise: Heart disease and diabetes kill more people than 2000 times as many people each year in the U.S. as terrorists, mass shootings, and home invasions put together.

Take a defensive driving course: tens of thousands of people die from traffic accidents in the U.S. every year.

Take care of your mental health: suicide is the 10th most common cause of death in the U.S.

Teach your kids how to swim.

Heck - take the time to fix that loose step on the back steps. It's more likely to kill you than terrorists or a home invading gang.

Or just get attack dogs, of course those dogs may be more likely to attack your a loved one than you are likely to get attacked. Heck all the money I've spent in martial arts I could easily take back and spend on home security.

 

[K-man]

Here we get into a fundamental fact of human psychology: people are bad at evaluating risk.

Terrorist attacks, mass shootings, and home invasions by armed gangs make the news because they are scary and unusual. Statistically speaking, however, you are more likely to be killed by lightning than by a terrorist. If you are spending thousands of hours of hard training because you are afraid of a highly unlikely event that you will a) probably never encounter in your life and b) would have only a small chance of successfully handling with your martial arts training, then that is a poor allocation of your available resources.

Yes, but that brings us to the point of our training. If we are training for competition, great. If you are training for fitness then there are probably fifty better ways to achieve that. If you are training a martial art specifically for self defence you need to cover most bases. Guns and knives are common place, home invasions although not common do happen, attacks by gangs probably mean you are in the wrong place. Personally, I doubt I will ever have to use my skills. I train for a whole heap of reasons but principally because I am intrigued by the whole martial art scene. If I were to train BJJ it would be because I would find the moves and counter moves fascinating. But I certainly wouldn't train BJJ if what I primarily wanted was self defence.

 

[K-man]

Or just get attack dogs, of course those dogs may be more likely to attack your a loved one than you are likely to get attacked. Heck all the money I've spent in martial arts I could easily take back and spend on home security.

I have the attack dogs. I hope they recognise danger or they are going to try to lick my attacker to death! Bloody German Shepherds ... all bark and no bite, or maybe I didn't train them right.

 

[drop bear]

I disagree a little on both counts (lack of chance against multiple attackers and weapons) and agree on the need to train it. Now I can only speak from my own training but from reading posts in other threads I know I am not alone when I say that other arts train regularly against both multiple opponents and weapons

Here is tricky. I have done this at my club and against two guys who can grapple and don't care if they get hit on the way in the fight is over too soon to apply a defence.

 

[Tez3]

A home invasion around our way is when you leave your door open and the sheep come in.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, but that brings us to the point of our training. If we are training for competition, great. If you are training for fitness then there are probably fifty better ways to achieve that. If you are training a martial art specifically for self defence you need to cover most bases. Guns and knives are common place, home invasions although not common do happen, attacks by gangs probably mean you are in the wrong place. Personally, I doubt I will ever have to use my skills. I train for a whole heap of reasons but principally because I am intrigued by the whole martial art scene. If I were to train BJJ it would be because I would find the moves and counter moves fascinating. But I certainly wouldn't train BJJ if what I primarily wanted was self defence.

That is not really what he is trying to say there though.

If we looked at risk objectively we would be training to not fall off ladders and be able to tell the difference between eyewash and superglue. Not knife defence.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That is not really what he is trying to say there though.

If we looked at risk objectively we would be training to not fall off ladders and be able to tell the difference between eyewash and superglue. Not knife defence.

Don't try to use the eyewash while standing on a ladder until you reach black belt. That's an advanced technique.

 

[FriedRice]

Most people are just ignorant as to what BJJ really is, in terms of how it ties into MMA and the evolution of MMA and BJJ, separately and together. BJJ isn't even considered to be MMA. It's a significant component of MMA that can be argued to be an essential one, but it's not MMA; unless this was 20+ years ago.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Most people are just ignorant as to what BJJ really is, in terms of how it ties into MMA and the evolution of MMA and BJJ, separately and together. BJJ isn't even considered to be MMA. It's a significant component of MMA that can be argued to be an essential one, but it's not MMA; unless this was 20+ years ago.

Eh, most people are ignorant of the nature and history of just about all martial arts. BJJ is hardly an exception. On this forum we have enough highly experienced martial artists to work on alleviating that ignorance somewhat.

 

[MJS]

Over the past 18 months, every thread where we have tried to discuss Karate, Aikido, Wing Chun or any other martial art you'd like to name, eventually it has turned into an arguement where it is pointed out how BJJ or MMA is so much better and the training inherent in any other style is vastly inferior to the sport based styles that spar. Even more, even those that spar are inferior because they don't have a specialised ground game of BJJ.

Now I happen to think that BJJ is a great martial art and MMA is great for anyone who wants to test themselves in the relatively safe environment of the ring, but how effective is BJJ in the street?

I'll start out by saying that BJJ, like many martial arts, is mostly taught in a way that produces excellent fighters for the ring but does not prepare you for the street.

Let's put BJJ under the microscope without style bashing please.

The vast majority of BJJ schools that I've seen in my area, while they are all good quality, all are focused on the sport/competing aspect. Matt Bryers, one of the members here, has posted some clips of his Kobukai JJ, that he teaches, which is geared more for stand up/street application, although there is ground elements to it, it is different from the usual BJJ. IMO, mixing the 2, would be a big plus.

Everyone is different, but for me, in a street situation, I'd say avoiding the ground is the best option. Yeah, I know BJJ's strong point is the ground, but to intentionally go there...sorry, but that's just crazy IMO. If you end up there by default...sure, ok, do what you have to do to get back up. But that's not the time to prolong the ground game, for the reasons that have been talked about endlessly. LOL.

I do feel that having an understanding of the ground, is key, to SD. Are there BJJ gyms out there that also teach more of a street format? Don't know. If not, I'm sure it'd be fairly simple to possibly modify things as needed, for a street situation.

 

[Hanzou]

Over the past 18 months, every thread where we have tried to discuss Karate, Aikido, Wing Chun or any other martial art you'd like to name, eventually it has turned into an arguement where it is pointed out how BJJ or MMA is so much better and the training inherent in any other style is vastly inferior to the sport based styles that spar. Even more, even those that spar are inferior because they don't have a specialised ground game of BJJ.

Now I happen to think that BJJ is a great martial art and MMA is great for anyone who wants to test themselves in the relatively safe environment of the ring, but how effective is BJJ in the street?

I'll start out by saying that BJJ, like many martial arts, is mostly taught in a way that produces excellent fighters for the ring but does not prepare you for the street.

Let's put BJJ under the microscope without style bashing please.

Frankly, Bjj is highly effective in the street. If you check out some of the Gracie schools (and other schools), you'll learn takedowns, headlock defenses, throws, standing locks/breaks, and a variety of variations to ground fighting that are applicable to street situations.

I think one of the big misconceptions of Bjj is that its only effective on the ground, or that it only teaches you to fight on the ground. In fact, Bjj teaches you to fight from all ranges, and how to handle yourself against people trying to punch or kick you, or someone trying to grab you.

The main difference I see between Bjj and other martial arts is that Bjj is all about retaining/absorbing what works, and discarding what doesn't work. Bjj keeps nothing because of tradition, and absorbs whatever comes along to make the art as a whole better. If it doesn't work, we're not doing it, whereas many martial arts will continue utilizing outmoded techniques and principles just because their "master" taught it to them.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here we get into a fundamental fact of human psychology: people are bad at evaluating risk.

Terrorist attacks, mass shootings, and home invasions by armed gangs make the news because they are scary and unusual. Statistically speaking, however, you are more likely to be killed by lightning than by a terrorist. If you are spending thousands of hours of hard training because you are afraid of a highly unlikely event that you will a) probably never encounter in your life and b) would have only a small chance of successfully handling with your martial arts training, then that is a poor allocation of your available resources.

If you are that determined to protect yourself and your family, you are better off devoting that time and energy and money towards the factors that are actually likely to kill you, i.e.:

Improve your diet and exercise: Heart disease and diabetes kill more people than 2000 times as many people each year in the U.S. as terrorists, mass shootings, and home invasions put together.

Take a defensive driving course: tens of thousands of people die from traffic accidents in the U.S. every year.

Take care of your mental health: suicide is the 10th most common cause of death in the U.S.

Teach your kids how to swim.

Heck - take the time to fix that loose step on the back steps. It's more likely to kill you than terrorists or a home invading gang.

Agree on many levels Tony. I totally believe in teaching your kids to swim, taking a defensive driving course, diet, exercise and so much more. However in my martial training I also believe in being well developed in all areas from weapons/tools, kicking, hand strikes, trapping hands and joint manipulation and grappling. I have also been active in firearms training way before I even went through the police academy and I am an active ccw person. (I carry 24/7) Even though mass shooting, home invasions, terrorism, etc. are a small percentage of what I train for they are in the mix and yes because of my background and training I will have "a chance" god forbid some thing ever happens. I personally believe we should try to be as prepared for lots of possibilities in our martial training.

I also believe that BJJ can be very effective and I mean very effective with the right training in BJJ and it's core self defense skill sets as Helio Gracie designed it. That and also of course the right mind set geared towards personal protection.

Your advice though is good to prioritize and take care of other things besides your martial training! Really bad idea not to take care of your health and be a poor driver!

 

[hoshin1600]

I think many people missed my point. I hear everyone talking about "street effectiveness" yet no one has defined what that is. My own personal risk assessment will be very different than someone else. My own personal chance of getting into an altercation with a drunk at a bar is close to zero. Because I don't drink and I don't go to bars. My own personal experience with home invasions is much higher I have had 3 incidents and the one I cited I use as an example because it happened less than 20 minutes from my home. My wife is from another country so traveling internationally with my family is more of a risk factor for a terrorist attack then most people. The more international travel equals higher risk.
So again people need to stop saying "oh that will never happen" which is denial, and start asking themselves ....ok what might happen? The OP question was about the effectiveness of BJJ but until you define the type of risk you are talking about you are talking out your butt...in all likelihood BJJ is more effective in preventing my heart attack than keeping my loved ones safe.

 

[Hanzou]

I think many people missed my point. I hear everyone talking about "street effectiveness" yet no one has defined what that is. My own personal risk assessment will be very different than someone else. My own personal chance of getting into an altercation with a drunk at a bar is close to zero. Because I don't drink and I don't go to bars. My own personal experience with home invasions is much higher I have had 3 incidents and the one I cited I use as an example because it happened less than 20 minutes from my home. My wife is from another country so traveling internationally with my family is more of a risk factor for a terrorist attack then most people. The more international travel equals higher risk.
So again people need to stop saying "oh that will never happen" which is denial, and start asking themselves ....ok what might happen? The OP question was about the effectiveness of BJJ but until you define the type of risk you are talking about you are talking out your butt...in all likelihood BJJ is more effective in preventing my heart attack than keeping my loved ones safe.

Against one or two unarmed people? A person skilled in Gjj should do just fine.

Against an armed team of terrorists? No martial art is going to help you. Call the police.

 

[K-man]

I do feel that having an understanding of the ground, is key, to SD. Are there BJJ gyms out there that also teach more of a street format? Don't know. If not, I'm sure it'd be fairly simple to possibly modify things as needed, for a street situation.

There are BJJ schools teaching street tactics but they consider that poles apart from the sport based BJJ.

 

[hoshin1600]

That's my part of my point Hanzou. . Until you define the situation everyone is talking about different things. It's the same argument people make about guns and rape defense. Once you get to the fact that most rapes happen in the womens own home by someone they know the gun as a means of defense seems less effective.

 

[K-man]

Frankly, Bjj is highly effective in the street. If you check out some of the Gracie schools (and other schools), you'll learn takedowns, headlock defenses, throws, standing locks/breaks, and a variety of variations to ground fighting that are applicable to street situations.

What about the rest of the schools?

I think one of the big misconceptions of Bjj is that its only effective on the ground, or that it only teaches you to fight on the ground. In fact, Bjj teaches you to fight from all ranges, and how to handle yourself against people trying to punch or kick you, or someone trying to grab you.

All schools do that?

The main difference I see between Bjj and other martial arts is that Bjj is all about retaining/absorbing what works, and discarding what doesn't work. Bjj keeps nothing because of tradition, and absorbs whatever comes along to make the art as a whole better. If it doesn't work, we're not doing it, whereas many martial arts will continue utilizing outmoded techniques and principles just because their "master" taught it to them.

Oh dear! Can't leave that out can you? BJJ is better than the others! OK, let's accept that BJJ is the best thing that ever happened and stick to analysing BJJ without bagging other methods of training.

 

[K-man]

Against an armed team of terrorists? No martial art is going to help you. Call the police.

Great idea! That must have taken some brainstorming. The problem is, the police are on the outside and the hostages are inside with the gunman.

 

[K-man]

I think grabbing and controlling a weapon is instinctive, not that it shouldn't be trained though. It's not a bad idea, but I don't think a bjj guy is just going to lay down in die when facing a shotgun. I've seen a few videos of store clerks snatching away a weapon from an armed robber.

And I have seen first hand when an unskilled person tried to disarm a guy armed with a Lee Enfield .303 loaded with blanks. He ended up in hospital with severe stomach wounds. There are a lot of pitfalls in weapon disarms.

 

[Mephisto]

I think many people missed my point. I hear everyone talking about "street effectiveness" yet no one has defined what that is. My own personal risk assessment will be very different than someone else. My own personal chance of getting into an altercation with a drunk at a bar is close to zero. Because I don't drink and I don't go to bars. My own personal experience with home invasions is much higher I have had 3 incidents and the one I cited I use as an example because it happened less than 20 minutes from my home. My wife is from another country so traveling internationally with my family is more of a risk factor for a terrorist attack then most people. The more international travel equals higher risk.
So again people need to stop saying "oh that will never happen" which is denial, and start asking themselves ....ok what might happen? The OP question was about the effectiveness of BJJ but until you define the type of risk you are talking about you are talking out your butt...in all likelihood BJJ is more effective in preventing my heart attack than keeping my loved ones safe.

Well what relating to martial arts do you recommend for handling multiple armed home invaders? I'll agree that most BJJ schools will fall short of equipping you for this situation, so will 99% of other martial arts schools. I have met some martial artist LEOs and a guy from SWAT who probably do offer training that would be beneficial in your scenario, but talking "BJJ on the street" or any other art "on the street" not much is gonna prepare you for that. You're better off with ccw classes and doing drills to secure and clear your house, this is another skill completely separate fro martial arts, there may be some cross over but I'd say its minimal.

And I have seen first hand when an unskilled person tried to disarm a guy armed with a Lee Enfield .303 loaded with blanks. He ended up in hospital with severe stomach wounds. There are a lot of pitfalls in weapon disarms.

I agree a lot can go wrong. I've seen videos of presumably untrained people disarming guns and it working out for them too, I'm sure you've seen them. Any weapon disarm is risky for that matter, GJJ actually trains a few, and they're similar to the disarms i've seen in FMA and other systems, no better, no worse.