Mephisto,
We can all agree that somtimes MA training falls short and I am not one to argue that. But the premise of the thread is the effectiveness of BJJ in a street self defense situation. Since I have asked a few times now for an example of what that would look like and no one has answered I am left with only my own idea of what a violent attack could consist of and how BJJ would fit into that framework.
Ok, I'll try. BJJ isn't my main game, I'd rather knock them out with standing strikes. But if I had to use BJJ in the street, I'd hip throw with something like a Tsuri Goshi, slamming them into the concrete with my knee coming down and aiming for their face. Whether this KO's them the F out or not, I still get a hold of their arm to do a standing arm lock to pop it at the elbow for insurance. This takes 3-5 seconds and if he has buddies (they always have buddies in these anti-BJJ scenarios right? As BJJ guys never have friends around, ever, right?), I get up move on to the next guy. I never commit to being on the ground. Only my crashing knee, down on his face and I'm ready to spring right up. Most untrained people in the street usually can't react that fast within that 3-5 seconds to help their buddy that I just jacked up, but in case they are punching me already, then I can take a few shots and may have to forgo breaking his arm and just bank on him being hurt enough with that throw onto the cement.
If it was just 1-on-1, the I'd definitely pop his elbow. Now he's in pain, if not KO'ed. I can go home or stay to maim him or chose to rack up possible manslaughter and up, charges. I would go home. Now how effective would the average BJJ be? The average MMA gym gets a lot of people wanting to try it out, daily. Classes are 90mins. 30min warmup/drills, 30min tech/drills, 30min sparring, almost always. Sometimes 45-60min sparring. The average 1st timer who's in decent shape from a fitness gym, will usually gas out and can't handle the 30min warmup, so imagine someone in poor health. The average Blue Belt in BJJ should be able to submit some new guy with zero training every 10-15 seconds if he wanted to. This would be horrible and being a bully, but I've done it to my friends who were untrained, just to mess with them and did so in way under 10-15 seconds when I was a Blue Belt. Kept submitting them fast and furious, just for fun. Now it takes longer than 3-5 sec in the street, because sparring in class, we start on our knees and on a cushy mat where the New Guy have time to resist. There's no picking someone up and slamming them into pure concrete that would more than wreck them with the crashing knee to the face. It usually takes 1 to 1.5 years of 3 days/week training to earn a Blue Belt in BJJ. 2.5 to 3.5 more years to go from Blue to Purple. Black is 8-10 years altogether, but usually 10. A BJJ Black Belt is no joke, hell a Purple isn't one neither.
In order to show that BJJ is effective there has to be a context other than just saying "because it works" I have given a situation of two men, one with a baseball bat forcing their way into your kitchen. A very fast moving and very violent attack. In my world if I am at home so too would be my children so that has to be taken into account as well. I do not see any of my ground work skills being used here.
Well you need to realize that BJJ comes from Judo and Judo comes from Traditional JJ. TJJ always had standup striking and all forms of eye strikes, eye gouging, and whatever pressure points or whatever. Kano was an accomplished Master in TJJ. He saw that it was not feasible to train hard, as athletes and compete with eye strikes, nut kicks, biting, etc. Anyone can ask their little sister to teach them that and train kicking at nutsacks on their own, which is why Kano removed these nut squeezing elements for his sportsterized curriculum of his TJJ dojo. This allowed his students to train hard and be able to compete with less injuries. He even called it Kano's Jujutsu and then later, Judo. Maeda was one of Kano's top student who traveled worldwide as a businessman and as a no-holds-barred fighter to promote Judo. At that time of Judo's infancy, it was still very much TJJ. They still trained all of the striking aspects, as Maeda fought NHB and it would be pretty dumb if he didn't know how to kick & punch. TJJ was Japan's major MA. Judo was just a new fad. Maeda taught the Gracies all of such aspects of TJJ/Judo. The Gracies, gravitated to the ground fighting work of TJJ/Judo, greatly improved it and coined their own version, BJJ. Not many people know this, but they also train and teach the standup striking aspects of TJJ, as well as their eye gouging and nut striking, etc. techniques. They just call that part, "Self Defense", to not take away from their CASHCOW of BJJ. But BJJ has always taught strandup striking as all fights starts standing. The Gracie Challenge has been around for nearly 100 years now, and they fought with no rules in Vale Tudo, with plenty of standup striking. Royce Gracie was kicking and punching plenty of people in UFC 1-4.
The main reason why BJJ doesn't train standup striking any longer (or rarely) is because at around UFC 8 or so, the strikers started getting wise to BJJ. In 1997, Maurice Smith beat UFC Champ, Mark Coleman (Wrestler) in UFC 14 as a Kickboxer who trains BJJ. BJJ alone was no longer the dominant force, and more rules were instituted which were unfair to BJJ'ers. BJJ gyms quickly evolved by bringing in Muay Thai for the striking aspect, which was far more superior to the strikings of BJJ (which looks like Karate). Most MMA gyms today, have 3 separate classes. BJJ with pure grappling and no striking. MT for pure standup/no grappling. And MMA to tie everything together. The problem is, many people who trains BJJ only, are afraid of getting punched & kicked in the face. And the MT only people are afraid or just don't like grabbing *** all day. And both of these Only-types, are usually scared to death of MMA, which is why the MMA classes are lowest in head count. The MMA class is usually the roughest. Getting punched in the face while standing up for many years and getting used to it, is not close being the same as getting taken down and getting punched and elbowed in the face repeatedly with nowhere to go.
This is what caused this PROBLEM that you are referring to, which IMO, is a legit argument....as to how BJJ alone, is not the best for street defense. MMA is the best, by far. But I can be pretty confident that a BJJ Blue belt and up can easily slam the hell out of some untrained, street nobody into the cement and dislocate 1 arm very fast and be way more effective than the average TMA who _*USUALLY*_ don't train with the same level of intensity. Sparring in BJJ is 80-100% power, all the time. If this streetfighting Uke is not KO'ed, then he's going to be in a lot of pain from both the throw and the broken arm. He's done, the fight is over. Anything after, is purposeful maiming, then attempted murder, then murder and no longer self defense, but easily achieved on a KO'ed opponent.