How effective is sport BJJ (or GJJ) on the Street?

[hoshin1600]

Mephisto,
We can all agree that somtimes MA training falls short and I am not one to argue that. But the premise of the thread is the effectiveness of BJJ in a street self defense situation. Since I have asked a few times now for an example of what that would look like and no one has answered I am left with only my own idea of what a violent attack could consist of and how BJJ would fit into that framework. In order to show that BJJ is effective there has to be a context other than just saying "because it works" I have given a situation of two men, one with a baseball bat forcing their way into your kitchen. A very fast moving and very violent attack. In my world if I am at home so too would be my children so that has to be taken into account as well. I do not see any of my ground work skills being used here.

 

[Hanzou]

That's my part of my point Hanzou. . Until you define the situation everyone is talking about different things. It's the same argument people make about guns and rape defense. Once you get to the fact that most rapes happen in the womens own home by someone they know the gun as a means of defense seems less effective.

Well like I said, in most cases, if you're fighting someone unarmed, you should do just fine with Bjj. Maybe even more than one person, depending on how much of a badass you are. Like Renzo Gracie or Bas Rutten, both who supposedly used their Bjj skills in multiple attacker situations.

 

[Hanzou]

What about the rest of the schools?

You'd have to check out their individual websites. Gjj schools should be utilizing the combatants program though. Can't really think of any that don't at this moment.

All schools do that?

Again, you would need to check their individual websites. I personally haven't run across a Gjj- affiliated school that doesn't practice that, but I could be wrong. It's how I was taught Bjj, and I really can't imagine not being taught those fundamentals.

Oh dear! Can't leave that out can you? BJJ is better than the others! OK, let's accept that BJJ is the best thing that ever happened and stick to analysing BJJ without bagging other methods of training.

That particular comment pertains to fighting only. Don't you and others believe that fighting isn't an important part of MA?

 

[Drose427]

While there is definitely a good point even from Sport BJJ that translates to SD, there still a decent bit that needs to adapted or not focused on for SD.

Off the top of my head, A gogoplata is very much the groundfighting equivalent of a Tornado kick. It can definitely be used in the perfect situation especially in competitions, but isnt the most practical submission by any stretch of the imagination. I personally havent seen it used even in the competitions Ive been to.

I can only think of one time it was even used in UFC.

Omoplatas also arent terribly common, but you'll see them now and again.

The "keep only what works, discard what doesnt" isnt as much of a BJJ principle as it is MMA.

Even though we dont see Gogoplatas and omoplatas in the same number as we see Armbars and Triangles, theyre still actively taught. If they were nearly as practical (notice how im not saying effective, if you can get them theyll work) or common we'd see them a lot more. But theyre still taught, if BJJ was all about "discarding what doesnt work" why teach anything other than the most practical moves?

Well like I said, in most cases, if you're fighting someone unarmed, you should do just fine with Bjj. Maybe even more than one person, depending on how much of a badass you are. Like Renzo Gracie or Bas Rutten, both who supposedly used their Bjj skills in multiple attacker situations.

Well first off Id question the anecdotes of anyone that close to the founding of a style tied to that persons founding name. If there were a bunch of other corraborating thats different, but name one person whos founded an MA that they want to be commercially and widely spread that doesnt fluff up their experiences.

Second, even if Bas Rutten is telling the truth and that did happen, its Bas Rutten. Your average MMA/TMA guy cant just sit there and get their head kicked in while trying to submit a guy..

 

[K-man]

Well like I said, in most cases, if you're fighting someone unarmed, you should do just fine with Bjj. Maybe even more than one person, depending on how much of a badass you are. Like Renzo Gracie or Bas Rutten, both who supposedly used their Bjj skills in multiple attacker situations.

There are several reports of Bas applying his martial art skills, the most notable being his fight with bouncers in a Swedish club. He ended up in jail but was later cleared when it was established that the bouncers picked a fight with him. How they could have been so stupid is beyond me. Not a sign if BJJ there. Only stuff from his karate days, sorry.

BTW, did I tell you Bas is a hero of mine? I have a bit of his material. Top shelf stuff, not a lot of BJJ in but good street stuff nevertheless. I had the privilege of training with him a couple of years back but he was teaching mainly MMA type stand up with a very small amount of basic ground work.

Second, even if Bas Rutten is telling the truth and that did happen, its Bas Rutten. Your average MMA/TMA guy cant just sit there and get their head kicked in while trying to submit a guy..

Bas doesn't sit there submitting people either. His punches to liver and spleen are legendary. Any fight with Bas in it .. I'm on his side.

 

[Hanzou]

While there is definitely a good point even from Sport BJJ that translates to SD, there still a decent bit that needs to adapted or not focused on for SD.

Off the top of my head, A gogoplata is very much the groundfighting equivalent of a Tornado kick. It can definitely be used in the perfect situation especially in competitions, but isnt the most practical submission by any stretch of the imagination. I personally havent seen it used even in the competitions Ive been to.

I can only think of one time it was even used in UFC.

Omoplatas also arent terribly common, but you'll see them now and again.

The "keep only what works, discard what doesnt" isnt as much of a BJJ principle as it is MMA.

Even though we dont see Gogoplatas and omoplatas in the same number as we see Armbars and Triangles, theyre still actively taught. If they were nearly as practical (notice how im not saying effective, if you can get them theyll work) or common we'd see them a lot more. But theyre still taught, if BJJ was all about "discarding what doesnt work" why teach anything other than the most practical moves?

Didn't you answer your own question?

Because they work.

Honestly, I see quite a few Omoplatas outside of MMA, especially against untrained people. If you know what you're doing, an Omoplata can be surprisingly easy to pull off, especially since it can be utilized as a follow-up to a failed Kimura attempt from Guard.

I don't see too many Gogoplatas because you need a ridiculous amount of flexibility to get them off. I know 10th planet guys like to use it because they like to use Rubber Guard. I'm personally not a fan of it. My viewpoint on it is if you have the flexibility to do all of that, just go for a Triangle.

Well first off Id question the anecdotes of anyone that close to the founding of a style tied to that persons founding name. If there were a bunch of other corraborating thats different, but name one person whos founded an MA that they want to be commercially and widely spread that doesnt fluff up their experiences.

Well Renzo already has a successful group of schools, and is a pretty popular MMA figure, so those reasonings don't really fit in that situation.


As for Bas, I'm just going by what he said. :shrugs: If he says he used bjj to fight off multiple guys, I'm not arguing.

 

[Drose427]

There are several reports of Bas applying his martial art skills, the most notable being his fight with bouncers in a Swedish club. He ended up in jail but was later cleared when it was established that the bouncers picked a fight with him. How they could have been so stupid is beyond me. Not a sign if BJJ there. Only stuff from his karate days, sorry.

BTW, did I tell you Bas is a hero of mine? I have a bit of his material. Top shelf stuff, not a lot of BJJ in but good street stuff nevertheless. I had the privilege of training with him a couple of years back but he was teaching mainly MMA type stand up with a very small amount of basic ground work.
Bas doesn't sit there submitting people either. His punches to liver and spleen are legendary. Any fight with Bas in it .. I'm on his side.

I agree, Bas as a Martial Artist is a monster! Good blend of simple, rough scraping and TMA's.

HOwever, Theres a specific video of him talking about using BJJ where as he was trying to submit a guy, the guys friend was just kicking him in the face and he took it until he could submit the first guy then moved on to the second

While Bas is.....well, Bas! Your average fellow training cant sit and get beaten while trying to submit one guy. He'll be K.O'ed or worse

 

[Hanzou]

There are several reports of Bas applying his martial art skills, the most notable being his fight with bouncers in a Swedish club. He ended up in jail but was later cleared when it was established that the bouncers picked a fight with him. How they could have been so stupid is beyond me. Not a sign if BJJ there. Only stuff from his karate days, sorry.

Like I said, who am I to argue?

 

[Drose427]

Didn't you answer your own question?

Because they work.

Honestly, I see quite a few Omoplatas outside of MMA, especially against untrained people. If you know what you're doing, an Omoplata can be surprisingly easy to pull off, especially since it can be utilized as a follow-up to a failed Kimura attempt from Guard.

I don't see too many Gogoplatas because you need a ridiculous amount of flexibility to get them off. I know 10th planet guys like to use it because they like to use Rubber Guard. I'm personally not a fan of it. My viewpoint on it is if you have the flexibility to do all of that, just go for a Triangle.




Well Renzo already has a successful group of schools, and is a pretty popular MMA figure, so those reasonings don't really fit in that situation.


As for Bas, I'm just going by what he said. :shrugs: If he says he used bjj to fight off multiple guys, I'm not arguing.

Crescent kicks and jumping kicks work too. All of have been used in MMA for good results. But that doesnt make them the most practical, especially for SD.

Anything works in the perfect situation...

Renzo has that popularity and what not now, I was referring to the beginning of BJJ. It simply sounds like fluff to bring in students. Like, "99% of fights end up on the ground"

And Bas being able to take curbstomps while waiting for someone to pass out hardly correlates to your average joe doing it....

Im also curious, how did you learn omo/gogplata? From guard the leg comes of the head the same way as taught by the two schools Ive worked with guys from.

 

[MJS]

I think many people missed my point. I hear everyone talking about "street effectiveness" yet no one has defined what that is. My own personal risk assessment will be very different than someone else. My own personal chance of getting into an altercation with a drunk at a bar is close to zero. Because I don't drink and I don't go to bars. My own personal experience with home invasions is much higher I have had 3 incidents and the one I cited I use as an example because it happened less than 20 minutes from my home. My wife is from another country so traveling internationally with my family is more of a risk factor for a terrorist attack then most people. The more international travel equals higher risk.
So again people need to stop saying "oh that will never happen" which is denial, and start asking themselves ....ok what might happen? The OP question was about the effectiveness of BJJ but until you define the type of risk you are talking about you are talking out your butt...in all likelihood BJJ is more effective in preventing my heart attack than keeping my loved ones safe.

Likewise, my chances of an altercation with a drunk in a bar a near zero, for the same reasons as you. I take yearly trips to NYC with my wife and sister, and my wife and I take a cruise every other year. Of course, all of that stuff, IMO, falls under the common sense SD aspect. Last year we went on a cruise. One of the spots was Honduras. Very reassuring, when you get off the boat and you're greeted by a sign on the dock, warning everyone of the high crime. LOL! Yet, we encountered no issues. I'm still alive and well, typing this message. Common sense. We stayed together, we went on a tour, through the cruise line, we didn't wander off on our own. Even if I encountered a problem, going to the ground would be the last thing on my mind.

BJJ, as I've said, is a very solid ground based art. I feel that everyone should have the basics, at minimum. If you want to keep going and get rank, that's cool too. Just like anything we train, there's a time and a place for it. I think it's safe to say that it's effective. How you choose to use it, well, again, situation depending.

 

[MJS]

The main difference I see between Bjj and other martial arts is that Bjj is all about retaining/absorbing what works, and discarding what doesn't work. Bjj keeps nothing because of tradition, and absorbs whatever comes along to make the art as a whole better. If it doesn't work, we're not doing it, whereas many martial arts will continue utilizing outmoded techniques and principles just because their "master" taught it to them.

Interestingly enough, I do that with every art that I've trained or currently train. Yes, I still do those things for the sake of tradition, however, as I've said many times, I want to make sure that when I do works for ME! I don't care if it has worked for my teacher, my teachers teacher, and his teacher...I'm not them...I'm ME!

 

[MJS]

Mephisto,
We can all agree that somtimes MA training falls short and I am not one to argue that. But the premise of the thread is the effectiveness of BJJ in a street self defense situation. Since I have asked a few times now for an example of what that would look like and no one has answered I am left with only my own idea of what a violent attack could consist of and how BJJ would fit into that framework. In order to show that BJJ is effective there has to be a context other than just saying "because it works" I have given a situation of two men, one with a baseball bat forcing their way into your kitchen. A very fast moving and very violent attack. In my world if I am at home so too would be my children so that has to be taken into account as well. I do not see any of my ground work skills being used here.

Well, I haven't given a specific scenario, because the possibilities are endless. I have however, said that like everything, we need to assess each situation, and choose our actions accordingly. 2 guys breaking into my house...no, grappling isn't an option.

 

[Hanzou]

Crescent kicks and jumping kicks work too. All of have been used in MMA for good results. But that doesnt make them the most practical, especially for SD.

Anything works in the perfect situation...

Actually I would argue that the Omoplata is very practical. In some situations, its actually more practical than the kimura because it frees up your hands.

Renzo has that popularity and what not now, I was referring to the beginning of BJJ. It simply sounds like fluff to bring in students. Like, "99% of fights end up on the ground"

That mugging took place 2 years ago.

And Bas being able to take curbstomps while waiting for someone to pass out hardly correlates to your average joe doing it....

I don't think Bas was taking curb stomps. He said that he was choking some guy out, and evading kicks/attacks from his buds. He then went on to say to train Bjj because it definitely works.

Im also curious, how did you learn omo/gogplata? From guard the leg comes of the head the same way as taught by the two schools Ive worked with guys from.

I never learned Gogoplata. I've been offered, but I'm not really interested in it. I'm not flexible enough, and frankly I think there's better chokes out there. Gogoplata is 10th planet stuff IMO.

Omoplata is different. I learned Omoplata as a continuation of Kimura, similar to this;

Again, I prefer Omoplata to Kimura because it leaves you in a better position.

 

[Hanzou]

BJJ, as I've said, is a very solid ground based art. I feel that everyone should have the basics, at minimum. If you want to keep going and get rank, that's cool too. Just like anything we train, there's a time and a place for it. I think it's safe to say that it's effective. How you choose to use it, well, again, situation depending.

As I said, I think the thing that gets missed from Bjj are the highly practical takedowns and throws within the system. You don't see it in the sport, but its a big part of standard Bjj practice.

Again, this stuff was the basics for me, so I'm always amazed that there's people out there that aren't aware of it.

 

[K-man]

Like I said, who am I to argue?

This is interesting.

Bas Rutten - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Talks about everything but not a mention of BJJ. Not even a mention of Jujutsu. There you go, with limited training he learned a collar choke. Hang on, I haven't trained BJJ either and I can choke people too, including the collar choke.

 

[Hanzou]

This is interesting.

Bas Rutten - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Talks about everything but not a mention of BJJ. Not even a mention of Jujutsu. There you go, with limited training he learned a collar choke. Hang on, I haven't trained BJJ either and I can choke people too, including the collar choke.

So we're to believe Wikipedia over Bas himself saying it?

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt....

 

[K-man]

As I said, I think the thing that gets missed from Bjj are the highly practical takedowns and throws within the system. You don't see it in the sport, but its a big part of standard Bjj practice.

Again, this stuff was the basics for me, so I'm always amazed that there's people out there that aren't aware of it.

Hey I love it. I can't understand why people are unaware of it either, at least anyone who has done any traditional karate. Kansetsu geri to the knee, I prefer a slightly different kick to enter clinch and drop into Shiko dachi, basic karate stance as you would know, step to the front into Sanchin dachi taking note of the crescent step to get past the leg and a standard karate hip throw. BTW, these are bread and butter in Goju. We also do the foot trapping but in a way so that he goes to the ground but you don't have to if you prefer not.

Hey that's cool. Normally you're saying everyone else is taking BJJ stuff and here is pure karate, straight out of the bunkai. Classic!

Oh, BTW, (is it Horian Gracie), he is talking about their BJJ for self defence. I presume you are aware of the two types of GJJ. That's actually why I put GJJ in the title. They started teaching a form for self defence because the sport based form was not very practical for the street. Sort of going back to the origins of BJJ.

 

[MJS]

As I said, I think the thing that gets missed from Bjj are the highly practical takedowns and throws within the system. You don't see it in the sport, but its a big part of standard Bjj practice.

Again, this stuff was the basics for me, so I'm always amazed that there's people out there that aren't aware of it.

Good stuff. I was taught this stuff when I first started doing BJJ.

 

[K-man]

So we're to believe Wikipedia over Bas himself saying it?

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt....

Right, well perhaps you'd like to play it again. No mention of training jujutsu, just a mention of a choke that is in jujutsu and other arts as well, and surprise, surprise, no promotion of BJJ. Just what was it you thought you heard him say?

 

[FriedRice]

Mephisto,
We can all agree that somtimes MA training falls short and I am not one to argue that. But the premise of the thread is the effectiveness of BJJ in a street self defense situation. Since I have asked a few times now for an example of what that would look like and no one has answered I am left with only my own idea of what a violent attack could consist of and how BJJ would fit into that framework.

Ok, I'll try. BJJ isn't my main game, I'd rather knock them out with standing strikes. But if I had to use BJJ in the street, I'd hip throw with something like a Tsuri Goshi, slamming them into the concrete with my knee coming down and aiming for their face. Whether this KO's them the F out or not, I still get a hold of their arm to do a standing arm lock to pop it at the elbow for insurance. This takes 3-5 seconds and if he has buddies (they always have buddies in these anti-BJJ scenarios right? As BJJ guys never have friends around, ever, right?), I get up move on to the next guy. I never commit to being on the ground. Only my crashing knee, down on his face and I'm ready to spring right up. Most untrained people in the street usually can't react that fast within that 3-5 seconds to help their buddy that I just jacked up, but in case they are punching me already, then I can take a few shots and may have to forgo breaking his arm and just bank on him being hurt enough with that throw onto the cement.

If it was just 1-on-1, the I'd definitely pop his elbow. Now he's in pain, if not KO'ed. I can go home or stay to maim him or chose to rack up possible manslaughter and up, charges. I would go home. Now how effective would the average BJJ be? The average MMA gym gets a lot of people wanting to try it out, daily. Classes are 90mins. 30min warmup/drills, 30min tech/drills, 30min sparring, almost always. Sometimes 45-60min sparring. The average 1st timer who's in decent shape from a fitness gym, will usually gas out and can't handle the 30min warmup, so imagine someone in poor health. The average Blue Belt in BJJ should be able to submit some new guy with zero training every 10-15 seconds if he wanted to. This would be horrible and being a bully, but I've done it to my friends who were untrained, just to mess with them and did so in way under 10-15 seconds when I was a Blue Belt. Kept submitting them fast and furious, just for fun. Now it takes longer than 3-5 sec in the street, because sparring in class, we start on our knees and on a cushy mat where the New Guy have time to resist. There's no picking someone up and slamming them into pure concrete that would more than wreck them with the crashing knee to the face. It usually takes 1 to 1.5 years of 3 days/week training to earn a Blue Belt in BJJ. 2.5 to 3.5 more years to go from Blue to Purple. Black is 8-10 years altogether, but usually 10. A BJJ Black Belt is no joke, hell a Purple isn't one neither.

In order to show that BJJ is effective there has to be a context other than just saying "because it works" I have given a situation of two men, one with a baseball bat forcing their way into your kitchen. A very fast moving and very violent attack. In my world if I am at home so too would be my children so that has to be taken into account as well. I do not see any of my ground work skills being used here.

Well you need to realize that BJJ comes from Judo and Judo comes from Traditional JJ. TJJ always had standup striking and all forms of eye strikes, eye gouging, and whatever pressure points or whatever. Kano was an accomplished Master in TJJ. He saw that it was not feasible to train hard, as athletes and compete with eye strikes, nut kicks, biting, etc. Anyone can ask their little sister to teach them that and train kicking at nutsacks on their own, which is why Kano removed these nut squeezing elements for his sportsterized curriculum of his TJJ dojo. This allowed his students to train hard and be able to compete with less injuries. He even called it Kano's Jujutsu and then later, Judo. Maeda was one of Kano's top student who traveled worldwide as a businessman and as a no-holds-barred fighter to promote Judo. At that time of Judo's infancy, it was still very much TJJ. They still trained all of the striking aspects, as Maeda fought NHB and it would be pretty dumb if he didn't know how to kick & punch. TJJ was Japan's major MA. Judo was just a new fad. Maeda taught the Gracies all of such aspects of TJJ/Judo. The Gracies, gravitated to the ground fighting work of TJJ/Judo, greatly improved it and coined their own version, BJJ. Not many people know this, but they also train and teach the standup striking aspects of TJJ, as well as their eye gouging and nut striking, etc. techniques. They just call that part, "Self Defense", to not take away from their CASHCOW of BJJ. But BJJ has always taught strandup striking as all fights starts standing. The Gracie Challenge has been around for nearly 100 years now, and they fought with no rules in Vale Tudo, with plenty of standup striking. Royce Gracie was kicking and punching plenty of people in UFC 1-4.

The main reason why BJJ doesn't train standup striking any longer (or rarely) is because at around UFC 8 or so, the strikers started getting wise to BJJ. In 1997, Maurice Smith beat UFC Champ, Mark Coleman (Wrestler) in UFC 14 as a Kickboxer who trains BJJ. BJJ alone was no longer the dominant force, and more rules were instituted which were unfair to BJJ'ers. BJJ gyms quickly evolved by bringing in Muay Thai for the striking aspect, which was far more superior to the strikings of BJJ (which looks like Karate). Most MMA gyms today, have 3 separate classes. BJJ with pure grappling and no striking. MT for pure standup/no grappling. And MMA to tie everything together. The problem is, many people who trains BJJ only, are afraid of getting punched & kicked in the face. And the MT only people are afraid or just don't like grabbing *** all day. And both of these Only-types, are usually scared to death of MMA, which is why the MMA classes are lowest in head count. The MMA class is usually the roughest. Getting punched in the face while standing up for many years and getting used to it, is not close being the same as getting taken down and getting punched and elbowed in the face repeatedly with nowhere to go.

This is what caused this PROBLEM that you are referring to, which IMO, is a legit argument....as to how BJJ alone, is not the best for street defense. MMA is the best, by far. But I can be pretty confident that a BJJ Blue belt and up can easily slam the hell out of some untrained, street nobody into the cement and dislocate 1 arm very fast and be way more effective than the average TMA who _*USUALLY*_ don't train with the same level of intensity. Sparring in BJJ is 80-100% power, all the time. If this streetfighting Uke is not KO'ed, then he's going to be in a lot of pain from both the throw and the broken arm. He's done, the fight is over. Anything after, is purposeful maiming, then attempted murder, then murder and no longer self defense, but easily achieved on a KO'ed opponent.