Home Invasion at the National Level

[MSUTKD]

You do not contribute to anyone’s safety. I am not a liberal and I think that some of the thoughts you have brought up are indeed paranoia and fear. That is the propaganda on your side of the fence. You need those two things to support your thinking. I think you have read too much of Jacques Ellul. Reality, you bring up reality? I have to ask, whose reality? Now you sound like Nietzsche, we all know where that ideology goes. I agree that it is a problem but we have far more things to worry about.

I really do appreciate your thoughts, though I do not always agree. Have you ever been outside the country? Have you ever been a foreigner? Not a judgment just as question of viewpoints. I have been both and it really gave me an insight, and love, for the place that we get to live. Just to be able to talk about this is a gift most “citizens” take for granted, except those who do not live here. When you’re the big kid on the block you have to take some responsibility and hopefully some tolerance.

ron

 

[Phil Elmore]

Why not consider opposing views for a change? Why always right them off as leftists hippy crap and wishful thinking?

There is an opposing view, still held in certain circles, that the world is flat. This, too, is wishful thinking -- a failure to recognize reality. Standing in the middle of a riot with your fingers in your ears claiming, "This is not happening," is not an option. So, no, I won't consider "opposing views" that are flatly wrong. Anyone who cannot recognize the need to prepare, prudently and reasonably, for self-defense, who cannot see the potential problems he or she could (but hopefully won't) face, and who therefore refuses to prepare because he or she does not wish to acknowlege these facts, is evading reality. This evasion is not just foolish; it is morally offensive.

Your feelings are irrelevant. What you think you do or don't need doesn't concern me. Your choices don't matter to me. Reality doesn't care what you think you do or don't need.

You do not contribute to anyone’s safety

Spoken like someone who contributes little but criticism and commentary. When you make the decision to devote your time to productive, constuctive contribution to the field of self-defense, your assessment of what I contribute may or may not have meaning to me. It certainly doesn't now. Again, it is much easier to take petty shots at me than it is to address an argument substantively.

Oh, and no, I can honestly say that I've never not been a citizen of the United States. I've never been a woman, a potted plant, a shoe tree, a glass of water, or a microwave oven, either.

 

[Cryozombie]

I have issues with illegal immigration.

I live in what I would consider a hispanic neighborhood, and like Andrew pointed out, many of them are nice people. However, our neighborhood is also full of latin gangs... and it seems whenever they try and prosecute these guys... they simply "go home" to mexico... so they have no fear of our legal system or responsibilty for their crimes. If they could not come and go as they please, I have to believe that MIGHT not be the case.

The same is true of traffic problems. I personally know the widow of a man killed in a car wreck, he was hit by an illegal alien, who was drunk at the time. No licenece, no insurance, She got no JUSTICE, because, again, he fled back to mexico.

A coworker of mine was in a similar situation, only no one was killed, just totaled his car... and again, fled back to mexico.

THIS is a problem. The first action these people do in coming here is a crime, so why should we assume they are not criminal? The ease of access across the border in both directions is a liabilty when it comes to aliens coming here and commiting crime at random with no fear of justice.

Iv'e said it before and I will say it again... if its too difficult to come here legally, we need to revisit those laws and limitations. I'm all for diversity and cultural integration. But on the flip side, its far to easy to come here illegally, and THAT needs to be revisited and stopped as well.
​

 

[MSUTKD]

Phil,

I will make my question clear.

Have you ever traveled outside the US? Have you ever lived in a foreign country?

ron

 

[michaeledward]

If you outlaw immigration, only outlaws will immigrate.

Open the borders. Let anyone who wishes to come to America, come and participate, and breathe free. Study, work, visit or contemplate the universe; we are the richer for it. There are more spices in my cabinet than salt, sea salt, and kosher salt.

 

[Marginal]

I don't know about you, but I'll pay more for an apple if it means there's less chance my wife will be raped by migrant workers.

Now that we've categorically established that migrant workers are all rapists, I don't understand why there's a debate at all.

 

[MSUTKD]

That is just “pure” ignorance on his part. Debate is not his forte.

 

[beau_safken]

Ahh my good friend Phil.

Great article of discussion.

As much as I want to make this a reality of having a completely sealed border and have it so those that wish to enter our country in the future, do so the legal way.

Big issue is the families that are already here. A wall will do the trick of helping to keep new illegals out, but the ones already here are another story. The mother could be a illegal but the kids legal citizens because of their birthright. I know that latino families value family over pretty much anything...so its gonna be more or less the biggest cluster F$%K in history if the government wants to declare all of those older/heads of households as illegal and ship them out.

Agreed we need to enforce our borders in this everchanging world. But if one things is for sure....the cost of this wall that will span all of our southern border will cost a LOT. How about just loading the rio grande with sharks with freakin lasers on their head...that will reduce the cost some.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

sharks with freakin lasers on their head"

Only if we can control them from a giant Big Boy command centre.

 

[MSUTKD]

Ill-tempered sea bass?

 

[shesulsa]

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy and general posting rules at the "RULES" link on the blue menu bar. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-G Ketchmark / shesulsa
-MT Senior Moderator-

 

[Phil Elmore]

That is just “pure” ignorance on his part. Debate is not his forte.

I think we've established that taking cheap shots is what you do, Ron, rather than addressing an argument. Taking a single line out of context does not do justice to the point being made, which is the reality that illegal aliens represent a signficant threat of increased crime rates, as supported by the statistics I cited.

Also, note the difference between protecting the borders and enforcing our citizenship laws and "sealing" those borders. I am not arguing for sealing the borders. I am arguing for the enforcement of the laws already in place. I am arguing for vigorous prosecution and removal of illegal aliens because of the harm they are doing to American society. You can mischaracterize any number of ways; you can take personal shots because you don't wish to argue the issues; you can be petty and childish if you must. the problem of illegal immigration remains. The solution remains clear.

 

[Andrew Green]

There is an opposing view, still held in certain circles, that the world is flat.

He world has always been known to be round, Even the Ancient greeks knew that. Ptolmeny & Aristotles models of the universe both had it as a sphere in the middle.

So, no, I won't consider "opposing views" that are flatly wrong.

Yet from many people's point of view it is you that is flatly wrong, and talking to you is like telling 1 8th century Christian that the earth is not the center of the universe.

Why are you so sure that it is everyone else that is wrong?

Anyone who cannot recognize the need to prepare, prudently and reasonably, for self-defense, who cannot see the potential problems he or she could (but hopefully won't) face, and who therefore refuses to prepare because he or she does not wish to acknowlege these facts, is evading reality. This evasion is not just foolish; it is morally offensive.

Well, I find it morally offensive when someone feels the need to carry weapons everywhere, feels threatened by everyone not like them and refers to anyone with different view points as leftist wishful thinkers.

But back to the topic, which is not about how you feel considering my feelings aren't allowed in as stated by you:

Your feelings are irrelevant. What you think you do or don't need doesn't concern me. Your choices don't matter to me. Reality doesn't care what you think you do or don't need.

How prepared are you for a lightening strike? a earthquake? A tornado? A alien invasion? Nuclear War? Flood? a gas leak? Someone loosing control of there vehicle and comming right through your front window? A virus outbreak? Getting cancer? A stroke? Radiation? Ozon layer dissapearing? A meteor strike?

Shall I continue?

The list of things that "could" happen is endless, why do you signal out self-defence?

Living your life preparing for horrible things that will likely never happen is pushing paranoia in my view. I'd rather live without fear and enjoy myself then sit in the basement wondering what evil lurks around in the world.

Truthfully, it's not that bad out there.

Why not leave the weapons at home for a day, go out and look for the good things, maybe give some change to some homeless people?

Spoken like someone who contributes little but criticism and commentary. When you make the decision to devote your time to productive, constuctive contribution to the field of self-defense, your assessment of what I contribute may or may not have meaning to me. It certainly doesn't now. Again, it is much easier to take petty shots at me than it is to address an argument substantively.

Constructive is debateable and a matter of opinion, some will likely consider your contributions counter productive. And for people taking shots at you, did you not compare the views of those that disagree with you to "thinking the world was flat"?

Oh, and no, I can honestly say that I've never not been a citizen of the United States. I've never been a woman, a potted plant, a shoe tree, a glass of water, or a microwave oven, either.

Well, that wasn't his question. Have you ever been outside the US? Not a citizen of another country, just a foreigner somewhere else? (Yes, American's are the "foreigners" when outside the US )

 

[Phil Elmore]

Defeatism is not a solution. Simply because we cannot prepare for everything does not mean we should not recognize what is likely, prioritize our preparations, and take responsibility for ourselves and our families.

Wishful thinking is not a solution. Deriding copers to make us more comfortable with our lack of ability to cope is likewise no solution.

 

[Andrew Green]

Defeatism is not a solution. Simply because we cannot prepare for everything does not mean we should not recognize what is likely, prioritize our preparations, and take responsibility for ourselves and our families.

But there is the problem, different people are going to feel different things are likely.

Pollution? I'd call that a likely problem, as it alreasy is one. Causing cancer, that is a threat to my well being, so am I within my rights to expect people to recycle, not drive SUV's, turn the lights off when they aren't in a room, etc?

I know your answer, and that is no, I can't stop them from doing what they want. But we could make a law about it, what people cannot do in order to protect the environment and ensure my safety can't we?

Again, I'm quite sure you'll say no as it is taking away personal rights.

But, why can we not restrict what people can do (carry weapons, pollute, etc.), things that endanger my safety. Yet we can restrict where people can go because you feel it endangers yours?

You see, your opinions are opinions, they are how you feel about things, they are not univeral truths. And if you want to tell everyone else they are being childish and there feelings are irrelevant why would you expect them not to return that in kind?

 

[shesulsa]

Mod. Note. - SECOND WARNING

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful and return to the original topic.

-G Ketchmark / shesulsa
-MT Senior Moderator-

 

[Flying Crane]

I think Andrew is right, and has made some very good points. Phil, you are presenting your opinions as fact, and brush off other's opinions as unworthy nonsense. Many here feel your opinions are nonsense. OK, once again, these are all opinions, everyone is going to have one. looks to me like this is going to be a disagreement no matter what, plain and simple.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Lets try to discuss what economic problems, illigals cause to society. Also possible solutions such as building factories in latin countries ansd helping their income grow so some people want to stay there.
There are reasons people come here so how can we as a nation raise the standard in those countries and help build a better economy there.

Now I have lived in an area where I knew that half the population of the complex I lived in where illegal and I have seen 4th generation americans who did or would not speak english ( to me that was a crime) but they worked and paid their rent out of their earnings (maybe not taxes) and there where as many Americans in the complex on welfare as illegals.

Now as to Gangs yes the members run back across the border but hell I knew more than one american that did the same thing then crossed back when things cooled down

As for the wall I have wanted to see it built for 25 years and I belive if you are here illegaly you are a criminal under our laws and do not deserve any free handouts but I will not begrudge anyone who wants to work for a liveng and say they can not

 

[Marginal]

Taking a single line out of context does not do justice to the point being made, which is the reality that illegal aliens represent a signficant threat of increased crime rates, as supported by the statistics I cited.

Even in the context you provided, there is no valid support for the conclusion that your wife will be raped by migrant workers if the status quo remains unchanged. It's cheap rhetoric that blunts the point, or worse, co-opts it so that the point really becomes "Be afraid!". It'd be interesting to see someone present this point of view rationally for a change instead of retreating to fearmongering scare tactics from the title onwards. Reality isn't just hysterical shrieking.

 

[Makalakumu]

There are some real problems with immigration and the solutions are not easy.

1. Immigrant labor drives wages down because businesses hire them for so little.

2. Companies that hire illegals outcompete companies that do it all on the books...thus getting an unfair advantage.

3. Businesses are often forced to hire illegals in order to compete with the global market which is paying third world workers rediculously small wages for "low low prices everyday" Walmart style businesses.

These problems, however, are not being caused by the immigrants. They are being caused by the society in which we live. It's as simple supply and demand. In order to supply certain things we need, we demand cheap illegal labor...maybe not directly, but our dollars certainly are voting whether we like them to or not!

Here are some solutions to this problem that I think would work a whole lot better then building a huge fence along our side of the Rio Grande.

1. We need have a living wage in this country. The minimum wage in this country should reflect an amount that will help a person live above the poverty level.

2. We need to crack down HARD on businesses that hire illegals and pay them diddly squat. We need to crack down so hard that the risk of doing so far outweighs the benefits.

3. We need to stop buying imported goods that are made by workers who are working in conditions that are illegal in the US.

These three things would do more to solve this immigration problem then any sort of militia or posse or Berlin-esque wall. The first one would ensure that people in this country can live off of the jobs they have. Thus, it is more attractive for people to work and more people WORK. This would reduce the amount of jobs that are being filled by illegals. The second would hit a business so hard with penalties for hiring illegals that it would not risk doing so for fear of being caught. And the third reverse the current "race to the bottom" in working conditions that are driving illegals over our borders. If corporations had to pay and treat workers in Mexico the same as they do in the US, then I am positive the average mexican would stay home.

upnorthkyosa