High Rank and Multiple Arts

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

I would like to raise a question, What about training in two or more styles at one time? An example would be, Karate and Kobudo. It is poretty common to have the two studied simultaneously and rank earned accordingly. I am also not sure what is considered "high" rank by any of you, 4th, 5th, 6th, ....

A very valid comment.

Many of us have run our own schools for years.

And we have people coming in with their own skills that want to trade those skills for our skills.

For example, back in the mid 70's Tim Bryne came into my studio with a wealth of knowledge in Taiji and in Wing Chun, but he didn't know kenpo and he could not spar worth a damn.

He was also broke, and I thought it would be interesting to learn Taiji and Wing Chun. So we became friends and students of each other.

Even though the mainstay of that studio in Boise was kenpo karate, we practiced other skills in our off time.

Many interesting people have came through my studios during the past 37 years of earning a living through the teaching of the martial arts.

Thank you for your clarity.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

As for your questions...as I have said in other posts in this thread, there is nothing wrong with crosstraining in more than one art. One, two, even three.

Haha!

So, any rank after 3 must be non-valid, in your mind?

I do NOT get your logic. You are NOT taking time, enthusiasm, massive dedication and the structures of possibility into account.

And in that post you are referencing is the answer to this last post and those questions of yours.

I suggest you reread it and then ask specific questions so I've a clue to what you are referencing.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Ps. I did meet Kenpojoe at the Gathering of Eagles 2007 and the HOF, and I liked him. We talked over old friends with each other.

 

[MJS]

Haha!

So, any rank after 3 must be non-valid, in your mind?

I do NOT get your logic. You are NOT taking time, enthusiasm, massive dedication and the structures of possibility into account.

And in that post you are referencing is the answer to this last post and those questions of yours.

I suggest you reread it and then ask specific questions so I've a clue to what you are referencing.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Ps. I did meet Kenpojoe at the Gathering of Eagles 2007 and the HOF, and I liked him. We talked over old friends with each other.

sigh...ok John, I'll start again. Take a look at this please.

"Mr. Rebelo Presently holds the following ranks / titles in the martial arts:
8th Degree BLACK BELT (HACHIDAN) in Nindo Ryu Kobujutsu (Title of "Kyoshi")
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Karazenpo Goshinjutsu (MA. Co-Vice Pres)
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Chuan Fa/Kempo (Kajukenpo-Pai Lum)[Sigung]
5th Degree BLACK BELT (Associate Professor) in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate
5th Degree BLACK BELT in David German's T.A.I.(Transitional Action Incorporated)
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Nindo Ryu Atemido
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu [Taijutsu]
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Iaijutsu
1st Degree BLACK BELT (YEEDAN) in Tai Chuan Tao
1st Degree BLACK BELT in Tae Kwon Do
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in George Elmer's American Chinese Kenpo Karate [Technical Advisor]
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in Mark Shuey's Canemasters Curriculum
1st Degree/Level BLACK BELT/SASH (Hei-Se) in Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu [Chin Na-5 Animal Style-Chuan Fa]
SIFU (INSTRUCTOR) in Northern Shaolin Praying Mantis [LIU HO {SIX HARMONY}, CHI SHING {SEVEN STAR} & BA FA OR BA BU {EIGHT STEP} KUNG FU/KUO SHU/WU SHU
SIFU in Tai Chi Chuan (Wu's Short 24, Yang's Long 108, and Chen's Short 24 Forms
INSTRUCTOR in American-Filipino Arnis-Escrima-Kali Training System
World Combat Arts Federation Massachusetts Representative
[*]Honorary BLACK SASH Level in Raven Kenpo Jujutsu [Technical Advisor] "

As I said..people can train in as many arts as they want...my question was, is it possible to do all this? How much time is needed? Considering ones age and time in the arts. In your opinion, how long should it take someone to reach 8th degree? What about 5th?

What about you? In your profile you say you've been training for 37yrs and are a 10th dan.
Primary Art and Ranking: 10 Dan Kenpo Karate, 37 years

Now, I'm sure during your time in the arts, youve done alot of training. Do you hold rank in any other arts aside from Kenpo?

My point being John, once again...is it possible to train in multiple arts and hold multiple high ranks? Many times you'll see people say that it takes a lifetime to master an art. How many lifetimes does it take to get an 8th degree and a few 5ths?

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

There just is not enough time on Earth to accomplish those ranks with any legitimacy, in my opinion.

It does seem though that many systems do not have criteria required for the higher ranks (techniques, forms, weapons, healing, etc.) it seems more closely related to who you know, friends promoting each other to high ranks in arts based on their "contribution to the martial arts" and general "time in the arts". Masters promoting each other all over the place or creating their own style when they hit the wall in a given style.

I suppose I am just unlucky since I chose an art that has CRITERIA for EVERY dan rank, 1st to 10th dan. So I cannot just go to a tournament and teach for awhile and get promoted- I have to gain competence in new material that is challenging so say the least. LOL

One of our instructors left the org. years ago as a Shodan with 7 years of training and now has the title of "Professor" and a 7th dan that was voted on by a board of directors from different styles. No thank you---I will take the knowledge and honor my instructors and style until there is no more to learn.

Cheers

A very intelligent post.

Thank you.

I also had the above happen to me. I sold a studio in 1997, to a 1st dan, and the next year he claimed a 5th dan, and now he claims a 7th dan.

Interesting to say the least. He is oriental and seems to have completely fooled the buying public. Why do I say that? Because he is still in business, and it's 10 years later.

On the other hand, back in the mid-80's I trained a fellow who was a vietnam vet and a tribal chief. He came to me to have me clean up the Master Keys of a system he learned while in vietnam over 3 tours of duty. So I helped him clean it up, and he awared me "rank" in his system of which I really do NOT know, nor really want to know anything about.

I was helping a friend of mine, who also was in the military at the same time I was.

So that rank is one that was and will be NEVER claimed.

But my friendship with him will continue on and on.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com

 

[MJS]

Haha!

So, any rank after 3 must be non-valid, in your mind?

I do NOT get your logic. You are NOT taking time, enthusiasm, massive dedication and the structures of possibility into account.

And in that post you are referencing is the answer to this last post and those questions of yours.

I suggest you reread it and then ask specific questions so I've a clue to what you are referencing.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Ps. I did meet Kenpojoe at the Gathering of Eagles 2007 and the HOF, and I liked him. We talked over old friends with each other.

Additionally John, please don't twist my words to suit your needs. 1, 2 and 3 is simply an example. But, if you're training in 1 art or 10 arts, is it possible to get an 8th degree in all of them? What about an 8th and a few 5ths?

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

sigh...ok John, I'll start again. Take a look at this please.

As I said..people can train in as many arts as they want...my question was, is it possible to do all this? How much time is needed? Considering ones age and time in the arts. In your opinion, how long should it take someone to reach 8th degree? What about 5th?

What about you? In your profile you say you've been training for 37yrs and are a 10th dan.
Primary Art and Ranking: 10 Dan Kenpo Karate, 37 years

Now, I'm sure during your time in the arts, youve done alot of training. Do you hold rank in any other arts aside from Kenpo?

My point being John, once again...is it possible to train in multiple arts and hold multiple high ranks? Many times you'll see people say that it takes a lifetime to master an art. How many lifetimes does it take to get an 8th degree and a few 5ths?

So this is a kenpojoe thing?

I've met kenpojoe and I did appreciate him.

He was honorable with me, and I virtually know nothing about his skills or his past training with the exception that he's read my books and watched my DVD's, and that he was on an Ed Parker seminar video from 1985 (thereabouts).

I will NOT valid any rank of his since he is NOT my student. I will NOT disrespect him, because I just DON'T KNOW. I think that is reasonable and fair.

And if it's a "me" thing, I suggest you type my name into the search engine of this group and notice where I've already answered that question, ONCE.

I also was asked by Mr. Broad on kenpotalk about a year ago to give a history, so I did. If anyone is interesting they can go there and find it...

...or I can repost it here since I've a copy of it somewhere.

Which I think was very respectful of me.

Don't you?

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

What about you? In your profile you say you've been training for 37yrs and are a 10th dan.
Primary Art and Ranking: 10 Dan Kenpo Karate, 37 years

I am NOT twisting what you say.

YOU are IGNORING what I say, and attempting to twist whatever I say to some preconceived premise that you have.

I did NOT say that I've been training 37 years.

I DID say that "I've been training in KENPO KARATE for 37 years".

A big difference my friend.

I'd already been in the martial arts for TWENTY YEARS when I started training with DD (a student of Steve Fox) in 1970, who was also a student of mine when I was teaching at the Medford Judo & Karate Academy back then.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.realspeedhitting.com

 

[MJS]

So this is a kenpojoe thing?

No, this is a high rank/multiple art thing. Joe was brought into this by someone else. If you had read the prior posts, I'm sure you would have seen that.

I've met kenpojoe and I did appreciate him.

He was honorable with me, and I virtually know nothing about his skills or his past training with the exception that he's read my books and watched my DVD's, and that he was on an Ed Parker seminar video from 1985 (thereabouts).

I will NOT valid any rank of his since he is NOT my student. I will NOT disrespect him, because I just DON'T KNOW. I think that is reasonable and fair.

Not asking you to vouch for him John. Im asking you if, in your opinion, you think that anyone, not just Joe, is capable of this feat.

And if it's a "me" thing, I suggest you type my name into the search engine of this group and notice where I've already answered that question, ONCE.

I also was asked by Mr. Broad on kenpotalk about a year ago to give a history, so I did. If anyone is interesting they can go there and find it...

...or I can repost it here since I've a copy of it somewhere.

Which I think was very respectful of me.

Don't you?

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com

There ya go again, putting words in my mouth. I asked a simple question, in hopes of getting a simple reply. Once again, I'm simply looking for feedback. I do find it interesting though, that I still havent received an answer to my question that I asked a while back on this thread. Like I said, I'm not surprised though.

But seeing that you're suggesting that I search Kenpotalk for your bio, I may suggest that you take the time to read thru the posts from the beginning. I'm sure many of your questions to my views on this subject will be answered.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I am NOT twisting what you say.

YOU are IGNORING what I say, and attempting to twist whatever I say to some preconceived premise that you have.

I did NOT say that I've been training 37 years.

I DID say that "I've been training in KENPO KARATE for 37 years".

A big difference my friend.

I'd already been in the martial arts for TWENTY YEARS when I started training with DD (a student of Steve Fox) in 1970, who was also a student of mine when I was teaching at the Medford Judo & Karate Academy back then.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.realspeedhitting.com

Ok..a simple misunderstanding. Gee John, it happens all the time on forums. So I have this right now...you've trained in Kenpo for 37yrs and are a 10th dan. Do you hold rank in any other art(s)?

And actually, I was referring to when you asked me if I was now directing this thread to you.

And if it's a "me" thing, I suggest you type my name into the search engine of this group and notice where I've already answered that question, ONCE.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I'm curious to why you think that "wanting more knowledge" is an obsession with high rank?

Hmmm..why do you think this is what I mean? You don't need to wear an 8th or a 10th to have knowledge John. See, this is what I've said in other posts on here. Impress me with your skill, not the number of stripes on your belt. I'll point out a few places I've said it. In my first post. Not sure if you saw it though, because you didn't quote the entire post. I also said it in post #27. Again, it may be a good idea to read all the posts, not just a few of them.

People think that if they have alot of flash, other will "oohhh and ahhh" and it'll make them feel good. Sorry, I dont do that. Like I said..impress me with what you can do, not the fancy stripes or bars.

 

[Danjo]

I'm curious to why you think that "wanting more knowledge" is an obsession with high rank?

Would you be happy to be in the first grade for 20 years, going over the same crapola day after day, month after month and year after year?

Did you know that in the same amount of time, 20 years, any average person with a focused goal can go through kindergarden, 6 years of grade school, 3 years of Jr. High School, 3 years of High School, 4 years of college, and earn a Ph.D?

I'm curious to why you think that is not okay?

Some of us have been "banging" around in the martial arts for many, many years. Back in 1950 boxing was the thing. Then in the late 50's and early 60's, Juijitsu and Judo were the thing. Then taekwondo became the thing. Then Kung fu became the thing. Then Arnis became the thing. For many of us Kenpo was the thing. Now cage caca is the thing.

My point being, we lived though the different menus and we partook of the food out there.

And, being 19 with multiple black belts might be really fraudulent.

Being in their sixties and savoring what was there back then is just "they were enterprising".

And even though many people do have multiple ranks, they normally end up teaching one style that they love, and NOT all the styles that they went through in 50 years of training and of having tremendous fun.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.realspeedhitting.com

I think that the point of this thread is centered upon the concept of "EARN". When we think of people that are highly ranked we think of someone that has spent years and years in an art. During those years, that person is going through different phases of development and refinement. Up to black belt, one is spending most of one's time mastering the basic core curriculum to a certain level of expertise and absorbing the core concepts of the art. After black, one is spending time refining one's material through practice and instruction (one only really learns what one can teach to a variety of students IMO) which develops the nuances that one didn't get on the way to black belt because so much time was focussed on learning the material sequentially. In addition, there will inevitably be new material to aquire after this rank. After other degrees are reached, one might even innovate a bit and bring new techniques into the art etc. after the essence of the art has been sufficiently internalized. In the most advanced ranks, the value of the master of the art is that of an instructor that can and does bring out skill and ability in students ala great teachers and coaches such as Cus Damato, Eddie Futch, Angelo Dundee, Helio Gracie, Ed Parker, Adriano Emperado, Ginchin Funakoshi etc. etc.

To me, the rank of fifth degree or above indicates those that have done and can do this. These people I describe have unquestionably EARNED their status and rank.

When one sees many high ranks, one has to ask oneself if it is really possible to EARN that rank legitimately given what I've outlined above. How much has truly been given to each art for that to have been achieved? Or, conversely, if it IS that easy to EARN rank in the arts listed, how good can those arts really be?

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

There are also instances where arts are similar enough that if you were to switch style (either by choice or circumstance) you would start at a higher level than a total novice. When I first broke away from my Okinawa Kenpo instruction as a Sandan (due to a difference of opinion we'll say, not because I didn't care for the art. Still do even though said circumstance prevents me from propagating the art.) I contemplated a switch to Tang Soo Do since there was an instructor close by. When I visited the school and spoke to the owner/head instructor I was told that I'd come into the class as a probabtionary black belt because the kata I knew were close to the hyung they did. I tried talking my way into coming in as a white belt, but he wouldn't budge. I never did take the classes because I began to develop a great relationship with GM Max Pallen of Senkotiros arnis and opened a school passing on his art... Wow.. I kinda got off subject... Anyway, the point is sometimes it's like credits that transfer from one college to another or testing out of some classes toward your degree. Does that make sense?

 

[John Bishop]

There are also instances where arts are similar enough that if you were to switch style (either by choice or circumstance) you would start at a higher level than a total novice. When I first broke away from my Okinawa Kenpo instruction as a Sandan (due to a difference of opinion we'll say, not because I didn't care for the art. Still do even though said circumstance prevents me from propagating the art.) I contemplated a switch to Tang Soo Do since there was an instructor close by. When I visited the school and spoke to the owner/head instructor I was told that I'd come into the class as a probabtionary black belt because the kata I knew were close to the hyung they did.

That's much more understandable then someone goes into another system and is ranked at 6th,7th,8th degree.

 

[KENPOJOE]

So this is a kenpojoe thing?

I've met kenpojoe and I did appreciate him.

He was honorable with me, and I virtually know nothing about his skills or his past training with the exception that he's read my books and watched my DVD's, and that he was on an Ed Parker seminar video from 1985 (thereabouts).

I will NOT valid any rank of his since he is NOT my student. I will NOT disrespect him, because I just DON'T KNOW. I think that is reasonable and fair.

And if it's a "me" thing, I suggest you type my name into the search engine of this group and notice where I've already answered that question, ONCE.

I also was asked by Mr. Broad on kenpotalk about a year ago to give a history, so I did. If anyone is interesting they can go there and find it...

...or I can repost it here since I've a copy of it somewhere.

Which I think was very respectful of me.

Don't you?

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com

Hi folks!
Dear Mr. Latourette,
Basically you are right. This thread has become more of a "let's attempt to discredit Kenpo Joe" thread than a general thread on a given topic. I've been the only person honest enough to accually address this issue because it became obvious that this thread and another recent one like it was aimed at me from information gleamed from my website. I have made an offer in good standing and friendship to the MJS to visit my studio and to go over my martial arts career and credentials and that's all I can do to "remedy" his present opinion of me personally.
I agree with you completely regarding your statements.
It was an honor to finally meet you as well attend your seminar at the GOTE2007. I am sorry that I did not get a chance to interview you at that time & I know that we would have had a great time!
Yes, I do indeed have all of Mr. Latourette's books and some of his video tapes as well and it was great to finally meet the man himself!
If these individuals wish to continue this thread in the allegedly "non-personal" intent, then let them mention other instructors other than one of my dead instructors or myself.
Thank you for your time,
KENPOJOE

 

[MJS]

Hi folks!
Dear Mr. Latourette,
Basically you are right. This thread has become more of a "let's attempt to discredit Kenpo Joe" thread than a general thread on a given topic. I've been the only person honest enough to accually address this issue because it became obvious that this thread and another recent one like it was aimed at me from information gleamed from my website. I have made an offer in good standing and friendship to the MJS to visit my studio and to go over my martial arts career and credentials and that's all I can do to "remedy" his present opinion of me personally.
I agree with you completely regarding your statements.
It was an honor to finally meet you as well attend your seminar at the GOTE2007. I am sorry that I did not get a chance to interview you at that time & I know that we would have had a great time!
Yes, I do indeed have all of Mr. Latourette's books and some of his video tapes as well and it was great to finally meet the man himself!
If these individuals wish to continue this thread in the allegedly "non-personal" intent, then let them mention other instructors other than one of my dead instructors or myself.
Thank you for your time,
KENPOJOE

HI Joe,

Just as a reminder, when I started this thread, it was a general question. Your name came up from someone and it went from there. A few of us, myself included, have asked questions, only to have them avoided. By all means, if its something you'd rather not talk about on here, feel free to PM me. As for coming down to your school...yes, I'd be happy to and as I said, dinner and drinks on me afterwards. Once the holidays are over and things settle down for me a little at work, perhaps we can set something up.

Mike

 

[The Last Legionary]

The problem with so many of these so called "high ranks" is that they are nothing more than cert collectors. They get cross ranked into their buddies arts having rarely and sometimes never stepped foot on those floors or done those arts. They get other scum suckers like themselves to sign off on those certs, toss a few "super sokes" in the mix, and suddenly they themselves are great grandfarters of their own partial art.

15 blackbelts, lots of 7ths 8ths 9ths and even 10th dans on the paper, maybe even a few degrees from some mail order degree mill, and next thing you know, you got these ego driven paper tigers. Want to know who they are? There's a whole site out there dedicated to roasting and reaming their sorry scab asses.

So, sucks if ol' "No Show" thinks it's all about him. It ain't. But maybe he protests too much.

To the "multi-ranked High Boys" here, before you open your yaps and start typing with your feet, answer this question:

How much floor time did you put in specifically training the arts you have those dans in?
I don't mean total. 20 years trainings great, God Bless You.
But if it looks like this:
10 years Gong Fu - 8th dan
6 months Tae Mui Sho - 7th dan
6 weeks - Sent in my video waiting for my glass ring soke do

Then save your spittle and whatnot, because I don't care, and neither should anyone competent.



VI

 

[MJS]

The problem with so many of these so called "high ranks" is that they are nothing more than cert collectors. They get cross ranked into their buddies arts having rarely and sometimes never stepped foot on those floors or done those arts. They get other scum suckers like themselves to sign off on those certs, toss a few "super sokes" in the mix, and suddenly they themselves are great grandfarters of their own partial art.

15 blackbelts, lots of 7ths 8ths 9ths and even 10th dans on the paper, maybe even a few degrees from some mail order degree mill, and next thing you know, you got these ego driven paper tigers. Want to know who they are? There's a whole site out there dedicated to roasting and reaming their sorry scab asses.

So, sucks if ol' "No Show" thinks it's all about him. It ain't. But maybe he protests too much.

To the "multi-ranked High Boys" here, before you open your yaps and start typing with your feet, answer this question:

How much floor time did you put in specifically training the arts you have those dans in?
I don't mean total. 20 years trainings great, God Bless You.
But if it looks like this:
10 years Gong Fu - 8th dan
6 months Tae Mui Sho - 7th dan
6 weeks - Sent in my video waiting for my glass ring soke do

Then save your spittle and whatnot, because I don't care, and neither should anyone competent.



VI

I have asked the same question regarding the time frame, and I never got an answer. This doesn't surprise me, but hey, the silence speaks more than the words themselves sometimes. If there was nothing to be ashamed of, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be discussed. Its when one is presented with a direct question, and it goes unanswered.

Mike

 

[kidswarrior]

I think that the point of this thread is centered upon the concept of "EARN". When we think of people that are highly ranked we think of someone that has spent years and years in an art. During those years, that person is going through different phases of development and refinement. Up to black belt, one is spending most of one's time mastering the basic core curriculum to a certain level of expertise and absorbing the core concepts of the art. After black, one is spending time refining one's material through practice and instruction (one only really learns what one can teach to a variety of students IMO) which develops the nuances that one didn't get on the way to black belt because so much time was focussed on learning the material sequentially. In addition, there will inevitably be new material to aquire after this rank. After other degrees are reached, one might even innovate a bit and bring new techniques into the art etc. after the essence of the art has been sufficiently internalized.

While I don't have a dog in this hunt, this bit from Danjo really struck a chord with me. This seems to be how my martial path has played out. As for others' paths, all I can say is I'm at MT to learn and possibly to share if someone really asks, but I stopped judging others when I began to see 50 looming/started AA almost eight years ago. Is this OT? Maybe. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[RevIV]

Ok,
I am going to throw this out there. I will have KenpoJoe at my dojo as an honored guest. Anyone who wants to see what he has been talking about is more than welcome to come to the seminar. I have not personally called him or asked him yet but i do know he will be there when a date is picked (he is always willing to share info). This will not happen until early spring so everyone will have time to make plans and come in. I will not let the event get out of hand and become a he said she said event- and disrespectful people will be asked to leave at my discretion (where as far as im concerned should be the rule for anyones school) it will be fun and educational for all. Maybe i'll bring in some other instructors who i respect and we can make a full day out of it, And then MJS can buy me a drink instead of Joe because i have never seen KenpoJoe drink anything but milk at social events.
Jesse E. Dwire IV
www.dpkempo.com

 

[LawDog]

RevIV,
May I attend your event? I would like to see Rudy again.