Helping Students Deal With Bullying

[Tez3]

yeah, in undergrad it was still called abnormal psychology, but we would go over the difference, and in my graduate school, I believe we called it psychopathology which to me is a much better term for it.

Don't forget 'eccentric' as a classification...many English people are eccentric though the Scots, Welsh and Irish aren't, they are just mad Celtic buggers.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yep, I remember those.

You know, I wonder how much of my current shoulder trouble could be tracked back to throwing those straight up as high and hard as I could back then...

 

[drop bear]

Of course it's true. The victim of the bully is often punished by school authorities with suspension, expulsion, or worse, equally with the assailant.

No idea why you decided to go with "and he gets beaten up too."

That is his point. You are in a fight. You are getting in trouble for it. Win or loose. Good guy. Bad guy.

So you may as well clean house while you are there.

 

[Steve]

I don't have the training to disagree, but can you tell me how we got along without the counseling and therapy in years past? Or maybe we didn't. I think we certainly failed a lot of servicemen. But then most don't go through what some servicemen do.

Short answer is we didn’t. That’s correct. There is a longer answer, but I’m working 12 hour days for the next few and I’m pretty tired. I’ve worked with so many homeless vets over my career I have a particular perspective. I think the two biggest issues in our country are the deplorable treatment of mental illness and the deplorable treatment of drug addicts, particularly opioids. Both of these have lead us to a huge number of people who are homeless.

IMO, We should be encouraging anyone who wants to talk to someone to do so. There should be no qualifications, IMO. It’s like anything else. You don’t have to have a chronic illness to see a doctor. You don’t have to be sick or injured at all to see an acupuncturist, a chiropractor or a masseuse. But we still mess that up.

 

[Langenschwert]

There is no easy solution to bullying. Generally, bullies only respect force. Modern schools are also non-permissive with regards to fighting, punishing the victim along with the aggressor if an altercation occurs. This is compounded by the fact that some teachers are themselves bullies, and care not at all if a "wimp" gets beaten up. Often the bullies are protected by the school, either deliberately or through inaction or by weak policy.

Jow Ga Wolf is correct in that if a kid is going to get in trouble anyway for defending him or herself, they might as well acquit themselves well and defend themselves successfully. No sense adding a beatdown to a reprimand if one can prevent the former. Not fighting back can be very dangerous. If the defender wins, the reputation alone may be sufficient to prevent further incidents.

I would totally stand up to school administration if they allowed a child of mine to be bullied, and then punished him or her for fighting back. Lawyers gotta eat, and I'd be happy feeding one over that.

I feel for the OP, and my heart goes out to them. From what I read of the thread (about 7 pages worth, ouch), I think the approach is good. Bullying enrages me more than nearly anything I can think of. Good for you for making a difference.

 

[oftheherd1]

There is no easy solution to bullying. Generally, bullies only respect force. Modern schools are also non-permissive with regards to fighting, punishing the victim along with the aggressor if an altercation occurs. This is compounded by the fact that some teachers are themselves bullies, and care not at all if a "wimp" gets beaten up. Often the bullies are protected by the school, either deliberately or through inaction or by weak policy.

Jow Ga Wolf is correct in that if a kid is going to get in trouble anyway for defending him or herself, they might as well acquit themselves well and defend themselves successfully. No sense adding a beatdown to a reprimand if one can prevent the former. Not fighting back can be very dangerous. If the defender wins, the reputation alone may be sufficient to prevent further incidents.

I would totally stand up to school administration if they allowed a child of mine to be bullied, and then punished him or her for fighting back. Lawyers gotta eat, and I'd be happy feeding one over that.

I feel for the OP, and my heart goes out to them. From what I read of the thread (about 7 pages worth, ouch), I think the approach is good. Bullying enrages me more than nearly anything I can think of. Good for you for making a difference.

I expect most, if not all here at MT, dislike the idea of a kid being bullied. It is an easy subject to get emotional about. But I think the bolded part of your post carries its own dangers. In today's society, at least in the USA, teachers nor schools want the burden of finding out the truth. It is easier to write a policy of zero tolerance, and in essence, blame the victim for being a victim, and only throw in the bully to make it look good, therefore not having to assign blame to only one child.

I will be the first to condemn those teachers and schools for that type of cowardly solution. Unfortunately, I must then also be the first to admit we don't give teachers the tools we used to give them, nor do we require accountability of the bully nor the bully's parents. It is bad, but it is the way it is. When teachers do not have any means of proving who started what the bully does out of their eyesight or the bully has accomplices, and the school administrations don't want to defend suspensions for the bully in court, you end up where we are.

So while on the one hand, I would like to see my grandkids whup up on any bully, I don't want to see them get in trouble too. But if other solutions did not work (and I can't give you a 'one to fix all' solution), then I think I would be giving them techniques to provide a different solution. I agree there may be times when that is the only solution, even if the victim gets a piece of the punishment as well. But ...

If you are a lawyer you must be familiar with the idea that a bully and/or his cronies might be willing to lie in hearing/court. Lose a hearing/lawsuit against the school and you might find evidence in that hearing/court being used against your child in a tort case against your child (and you as the parent), for beating up and then harassing the 'poor bully.'

Sad state of affairs. No easy solution that I can see. But I feel your frustration.

 

[Langenschwert]

Unfortunately, it speaks to a greater problem in society: institutions protect the perpetrators and prosecute the victims... from schools to workplaces to the highest levels of government. Bullies crave power and gravitate to those positions, protecting members of their own sick tribe. I don't know of a single person bullied at work that ever found redress through HR. HR's job is to protect the bully and paint the victim as a complainer. Also, unions are often unwilling to act against a member accused of poor conduct.

But the thing is...while we have bullies entrenched at all levels of society, they learn it at school. Bullies learn they can get away with it, and victims learn that there's nothing they can do about it.

Yes, bullying makes me mad. I hate victimization of any kind. And i don't even have kids.

 

[Steve]

I agree with @Langenschwert that there are no easy solutions to bullying, and am not a fan of zero-tolerance policies in schools. The topic of bullying comes up periodically, and I have gotten the impression over the years here that my opinion is a minority one. I really regret how the situation is continually framed so that bullies are bad kids and the bullied are good kids being victimized. I think this is a very damaging and typically ill-considered one for all of the kids involved, so I apologize in advance if I sound like I'm on a soap-box. I'll borrow some of the language from my previous posts on the subject, so if this sounds familiar, forgive me.

First, my opinion is that all kids are incomplete human beings, who are all learning to be happy, healthy and productive adults, any discussion that involves kids needs to consider the welfare of ALL of the kids, which includes the bullies. It's perfectly understandable that we only tend to advocate for the kids we're connected to (our own or those whom we coach.) I think it's important that we all remember that schools have a responsibility to advocate for all of the children, not just ours. And it's possible (or probable) that the kid we think is a little angel, isn't. And conversely, the kid we believe is the devil also isn't. All kids are on some kind of a spectrum of dysfunction. They are unfinished adults. If they exercised good judgment and sound decision making skills, we'd be kicking them out of the house at 12 and not 18 (or 20 or maybe even 30).

Also, kids bully each other in many ways, and if they don't have the proper tools to deal with conflict in a healthy way, they will learn to survive in an unhealthy way, which is what we generally define as bullying. But, it's not just physical. There are kids who bully others intellectually and emotionally. While a physical altercation may SEEM pretty clear cut, the kid who appears to be the bully may be the victim, who is standing up to a bully. Point is, sometimes, the "scrawny" kid who is punched in the nose is the bully, not the victim. The big, strong kid might be the victim. This is true now more than ever.

While we all have an understandable tendency to believe our kids' versions of stories without a lot of analysis, my experience has been that most fights go both ways. When you put a bunch of kids together, there are countless interactions that are completely unobserved and it's difficult when your own kid is involved, to remain objective. The unfortunate consequence, however, is that you might be reinforcing negative behaviors in your kid.

So, once again, I'll recommend to the OP that you focus on building skills. Consider your role to be the same as a baseball coach or a guitar instructor. Give the child a safe place to learn something and be a part of a group where he can be himself and let his guard down a little. Give him some unqualified support, along with realistic, appropriate feedback so that he starts to develop some self confidence and resilience.

Anything more than this, I would recommend you avoid unless it's in your lane and you're asked to do so by the parents.

 

[oftheherd1]

I agree with @Langenschwert that there are no easy solutions to bullying, and am not a fan of zero-tolerance policies in schools. The topic of bullying comes up periodically, and I have gotten the impression over the years here that my opinion is a minority one. I really regret how the situation is continually framed so that bullies are bad kids and the bullied are good kids being victimized. I think this is a very damaging and typically ill-considered one for all of the kids involved, so I apologize in advance if I sound like I'm on a soap-box. I'll borrow some of the language from my previous posts on the subject, so if this sounds familiar, forgive me.

First, my opinion is that all kids are incomplete human beings, who are all learning to be happy, healthy and productive adults, any discussion that involves kids needs to consider the welfare of ALL of the kids, which includes the bullies. It's perfectly understandable that we only tend to advocate for the kids we're connected to (our own or those whom we coach.) I think it's important that we all remember that schools have a responsibility to advocate for all of the children, not just ours. And it's possible (or probable) that the kid we think is a little angel, isn't. And conversely, the kid we believe is the devil also isn't. All kids are on some kind of a spectrum of dysfunction. They are unfinished adults. If they exercised good judgment and sound decision making skills, we'd be kicking them out of the house at 12 and not 18 (or 20 or maybe even 30).

Also, kids bully each other in many ways, and if they don't have the proper tools to deal with conflict in a healthy way, they will learn to survive in an unhealthy way, which is what we generally define as bullying. But, it's not just physical. There are kids who bully others intellectually and emotionally. While a physical altercation may SEEM pretty clear cut, the kid who appears to be the bully may be the victim, who is standing up to a bully. Point is, sometimes, the "scrawny" kid who is punched in the nose is the bully, not the victim. The big, strong kid might be the victim. This is true now more than ever.

While we all have an understandable tendency to believe our kids' versions of stories without a lot of analysis, my experience has been that most fights go both ways. When you put a bunch of kids together, there are countless interactions that are completely unobserved and it's difficult when your own kid is involved, to remain objective. The unfortunate consequence, however, is that you might be reinforcing negative behaviors in your kid.

So, once again, I'll recommend to the OP that you focus on building skills. Consider your role to be the same as a baseball coach or a guitar instructor. Give the child a safe place to learn something and be a part of a group where he can be himself and let his guard down a little. Give him some unqualified support, along with realistic, appropriate feedback so that he starts to develop some self confidence and resilience.

Anything more than this, I would recommend you avoid unless it's in your lane and you're asked to do so by the parents.

I didn't have a lot of disagreement except for the bolded and underlined part. On what part of what curve do you place all kids?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I didn't have a lot of disagreement except for the bolded and underlined part. On what part of what curve do you place all kids?

I thought that was the least controversial part of Steve's post. All kids (and all adults, for that matter) have some type of dysfunction.

 

[Steve]

I didn't have a lot of disagreement except for the bolded and underlined part. On what part of what curve do you place all kids?

I understand. I was speaking a bit tongue in cheek there. I apologize if that didn't come through clearly. What I really mean is that kids are all still learning the communication skills they will need as adults, and even then, speaking from my experience training adults to lead others, most are working on their communication skills forever.

 

[Steve]

I thought that was the least controversial part of Steve's post. All kids (and all adults, for that matter) have some type of dysfunction.

Controversial? Moi?

 

[oftheherd1]

I thought that was the least controversial part of Steve's post. All kids (and all adults, for that matter) have some type of dysfunction.

I hope you are speaking a bit tongue in cheek too, and I am missing it due to my own lack of good communication skills.

I understand. I was speaking a bit tongue in cheek there. I apologize if that didn't come through clearly. What I really mean is that kids are all still learning the communication skills they will need as adults, and even then, speaking from my experience training adults to lead others, most are working on their communication skills forever.

OK. I can relate to that. I am still working on my communication skills as well.

My biggest problem seems to be that as I have gotten older, I don't suffer fools like I used to.

Present company accepted of course.

 

[Steve]

I hope you are speaking a bit tongue in cheek too, and I am missing it due to my own lack of good communication skills.



OK. I can relate to that. I am still working on my communication skills as well.

My biggest problem seems to be that as I have gotten older, I don't suffer fools like I used to.

Present company accepted of course.

No prob.... hey!!!!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I hope you are speaking a bit tongue in cheek too, and I am missing it due to my own lack of good communication skills.



OK. I can relate to that. I am still working on my communication skills as well.

My biggest problem seems to be that as I have gotten older, I don't suffer fools like I used to.

Present company accepted of course.

Nothing tongue-in-cheek in my post. We all have places where we don't function well - that's all "dysfunction" means.

 

[oftheherd1]

Nothing tongue-in-cheek in my post. We all have places where we don't function well - that's all "dysfunction" means.

Somehow, in my mind, dysfunction carries a negative connotation implying a more serious condition than things we may not be good at but don't really affect us. That is how I took your meaning; some serious flaw in our makeup that affects us in a strong negative way, and probably those around is as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Somehow, in my mind, dysfunction carries a negative connotation implying a more serious condition than things we may not be good at but don't really affect us. That is how I took your meaning; some serious flaw in our makeup that affects us in a strong negative way, and probably those around is as well.

I can see that. In my work in business, the word gets used a lot simply to refer to where a process, person, team, whatever isn't working properly - whether it creates a problem or not.

 

[Tez3]

Somehow, in my mind, dysfunction carries a negative connotation implying a more serious condition than things we may not be good at but don't really affect us. That is how I took your meaning; some serious flaw in our makeup that affects us in a strong negative way, and probably those around is as well.

That's generally how 'dysfunctional' is used here, it's very negative.

In my work in business, the word gets used a lot simply to refer to where a process, person, team, whatever isn't working properly - whether it creates a problem or not.

We just say it's knackered. Covers most things and is easily understood.

 

[lklawson]

I can see that. In my work in business, the word gets used a lot simply to refer to where a process, person, team, whatever isn't working properly - whether it creates a problem or not.

She Who Must Be Obeyed is in the mental health field. She likes to say that "normal is just a setting on the dryer." I.E., everyone has some sort of emotional trauma in their life which impacts them to a greater or lesser degree. For some people it is a something that affects them so much that it creates a problem for them somehow in their lives. Others can, more or less, "manage" the emotional trauma. But, according to her, pretty much by the time adulthood is reached everyone has some sort of trauma.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Langenschwert]

I understand. I was speaking a bit tongue in cheek there. I apologize if that didn't come through clearly. What I really mean is that kids are all still learning the communication skills they will need as adults, and even then, speaking from my experience training adults to lead others, most are working on their communication skills forever.

Unfortunately, a lot of people work on their bullying skills forever too.