Helping Students Deal With Bullying

[Steve]

one thing occurred to me. I don’t think anyone should have to put up with inappropriate behavior, whether the person is a bully or not. I hope that is clear. I’m not trying to suggest that bullying behavior should be accepted.

 

[Langenschwert]

So what reading I could dig up on this say yes, childhood bullies grow up to become adult bullies, and also more likely to engage in criminal behaviour. Interesting. It seems this is something that needs to be nipped in the bud at an early age. It's not like teachers and managers don't know who the bullies are. They just don't have the incentive to do anything about it because it doesn't affect them. Teachers still get paid, managers still get their bonuses.

 

[Langenschwert]

You can get the same lack of empathy from professional victims.

I have met precisely one professional victim, but many bullies. Victim blaming is a pernicious habit that we should avoid. It allows those in positions of power to continue to abuse it to the detriment of the rest of us. Schools and corporations need to adopt anti-oppressive practices. About 1 in 3 women report being sexually harassed at work, and 75% report retaliation for reporting it. If that's true, employers don't know the first thing about dealing with abusive behaviour or looking after their staff. The rate of bullying in the workplace is according to one study, 75%. That's shockingly massive. There aren't enough professional victims to make those kinds of numbers. It's bad enough that my province is working on anti-bullying legislation, FWIW. In the UK, it's estimated to cost 18 billion pounds per year, or roughly 10% of a company's profits.

 

[drop bear]

I have met precisely one professional victim, but many bullies. Victim blaming is a pernicious habit that we should avoid. It allows those in positions of power to continue to abuse it to the detriment of the rest of us. Schools and corporations need to adopt anti-oppressive practices. About 1 in 3 women report being sexually harassed at work, and 75% report retaliation for reporting it. If that's true, employers don't know the first thing about dealing with abusive behaviour or looking after their staff. The rate of bullying in the workplace is according to one study, 75%. That's shockingly massive. There aren't enough professional victims to make those kinds of numbers. It's bad enough that my province is working on anti-bullying legislation, FWIW. In the UK, it's estimated to cost 18 billion pounds per year, or roughly 10% of a company's profits.

Dude I worked twenty years where people would routinely try to punch me in the head.

I am definitely an advocate of preventing workplace bullying.

 

[drop bear]

one thing occurred to me. I don’t think anyone should have to put up with inappropriate behavior, whether the person is a bully or not. I hope that is clear. I’m not trying to suggest that bullying behavior should be accepted.

Yeah except you kinda do. Otherwise you get the no tolerance policies. Which also don't really work.

The issue is you can't just say bullying is wrong without looking at the people involved. And that is where it gets complicated.

This comes back to this empathy idea.

 

[JR 137]

More likely they will pile in and beat the bejasus out of you.

Depends on the age.

Adults, absolutely. But we really wouldn’t call this bullying when it comes to a gang of adults attacking one adult, would we?

Kids, not so much. Been there, done that (it was a while ago, with me being 41 now). If 3-4 kids are cornering a single kid, and the single kid goes straight for the “leader,” chances are quite good the others will back off. The followers are usually there to be entertained and maybe get a few shots in too. Again, the younger they are, the more this is prevalent. The older they get, the less so.

Just what I’ve personally been in and what I’ve observed over the years. I’m no expert in this matter.

 

[Tez3]

Depends on the age.

Adults, absolutely. But we really wouldn’t call this bullying when it comes to a gang of adults attacking one adult, would we?

Kids, not so much. Been there, done that (it was a while ago, with me being 41 now). If 3-4 kids are cornering a single kid, and the single kid goes straight for the “leader,” chances are quite good the others will back off. The followers are usually there to be entertained and maybe get a few shots in too. Again, the younger they are, the more this is prevalent. The older they get, the less so.

Just what I’ve personally been in and what I’ve observed over the years. I’m no expert in this matter.

Problem is you can't bank on it just because it's a popular film plotline. I'm not sure the followers are there just to be entertained though, often they are a gang and while there is a leader there are others who will back him/her up. this may be for a couple of reasons, firstly because they are of similar mind-set and secondly because they may be afraid that if they don't they too will be bullied. it's human nature for child to want to be in with the popular crowd or at the very least not be unpopular. there's deeper things going on that just wanting to be entertained. The crowd that forms around a school fight are those usually not in the same class or year as the 'fighters', they may want to be entertained but not the gang itself. The gang like any pack are there to cement their own positions or even move up, if the leader is defeated there will be another waiting to take their place. Sounds Machiavellian but is basic human nature sadly.

 

[oftheherd1]

So what reading I could dig up on this say yes, childhood bullies grow up to become adult bullies, and also more likely to engage in criminal behaviour. Interesting. It seems this is something that needs to be nipped in the bud at an early age. It's not like teachers and managers don't know who the bullies are. They just don't have the incentive to do anything about it because it doesn't affect them. Teachers still get paid, managers still get their bonuses.

Considering the likely consequences I have mentioned (at least in the USA), what do you expect schools and teachers to do?

 

[oftheherd1]

Depends on the age.

Adults, absolutely. But we really wouldn’t call this bullying when it comes to a gang of adults attacking one adult, would we?

Kids, not so much. Been there, done that (it was a while ago, with me being 41 now). If 3-4 kids are cornering a single kid, and the single kid goes straight for the “leader,” chances are quite good the others will back off. The followers are usually there to be entertained and maybe get a few shots in too. Again, the younger they are, the more this is prevalent. The older they get, the less so.

Just what I’ve personally been in and what I’ve observed over the years. I’m no expert in this matter.

I think you bring out an interesting point. What causes a bully to be a bully? That might help in encouraging a bully to stop being one.

 

[Tez3]

Considering the likely consequences I have mentioned (at least in the USA), what do you expect schools and teachers to do?

UK government policy about bullying in school. Bullying at school - GOV.UK

The majority of bullying though now goes on outside school in particular cyber bullying.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends on the age.

Adults, absolutely. But we really wouldn’t call this bullying when it comes to a gang of adults attacking one adult, would we?

Kids, not so much. Been there, done that (it was a while ago, with me being 41 now). If 3-4 kids are cornering a single kid, and the single kid goes straight for the “leader,” chances are quite good the others will back off. The followers are usually there to be entertained and maybe get a few shots in too. Again, the younger they are, the more this is prevalent. The older they get, the less so.

Just what I’ve personally been in and what I’ve observed over the years. I’m no expert in this matter.

This was my experience growing up, too.

 

[oftheherd1]

UK government policy about bullying in school. Bullying at school - GOV.UK

The majority of bullying though now goes on outside school in particular cyber bullying.

I think most schools in the USA have a policy against bullying. It is a somewhat hot topic, and, as you can see from this thread, emotions play a big part. The problems as I see it are the supposed solutions. responding to bullying with violence is probably defense, not engaging in mutual combat. Yet zero tolerance seems to consider all fights as mutual combat. That isn't going to solve any problems except that of the school, if it does there. My personal opinion is that lack of immediate correction, and/or falling back on zero tolerance, is a problem.

Cyber bullying is also an acknowledged problem in the USA as there have been cases of suicides by victims of that. Installing a greater sense of self worth might prevent the suicide, but the bullying shouldn't be tolerated either. It is made worse by the fact whatever the bully starts is echoed by others of the same click, who may or may not be easily identified. In the USA we are still grappling with this. The way things have been going it will probably be resolved by telling bullies to please stop doing that and demanding victims stop reading the texts, tweets, etc. It won't solve anything, but at least people can say they have tried for a solution, wash their hands, and crawl back in their shell.

 

[Tez3]

Zero tolerance policies depend on people actually having zero tolerance, in most places it works but the problem I think is that people are still thinking that school bullying is a simple case of kids going around beating others up for their lunch money. These days it far more than that. There's few 'beatings up' these days and far more psychological bullying.

One thing that has given children and adults 'permission' to bully is politics, here the Brexit stuff has brought some nasty people out from under their stones. The bullying of people different from us is now branded as 'keeping the UK' clean of immigrants and those that are different. Well known people are demand 'them' be got rid of, for 'our' benefit. Anti Semitic crimes have rocketed as has anti Muslim, in fact crimes against immigrants and refugees has rise over all. We are living in a time of great worry for many of us.

Recently we had a series on television where the online trolls/bullies of public figures were tracked down and confronted. These people had used social media to write appalling things to celebrities, one footballer's wife was told they hoped her baby daughter would be raped, she was told she should be gang raped ( followed by a nasty description of how) another Olympic ( Gold medal winner at that) swimmer was told she ought to kill herself for being so ugly. Most was quite awful stuff that I wouldn't want to repeat here. When confronted the trolls/bullies all said they didn't think the person they aimed their abuse at would read what they wrote, that if they did they wouldn't care because it was just 'banter' and 'anyway other people were doing it'!

All thought it was just a laugh, 'banter'... not to be taken seriously. This is a large part of what bullies do. The answers lie in a few directions but nothing will be fixed until we fix our countries' way of dealing with things. I see on FB everyday a political post being made with a good talking point followed by posters screaming abuse of those who disagree. It's horrendous. The 'political situation' of abusing others are carried on at home so children feel it fine to also abuse. The situation is getting worse by the day led by those at the very top of governments.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Zero tolerance policies depend on people actually having zero tolerance, in most places it works

I think you may be using a different connotation of "zero tolerance". Here, it often means "zero tolerance for violence of any kind", so if a bully corners a kid and the kid feels threatened enough to fight back, the victim will be punished (no violence, remember). It can even be worse than that - a bully corners a kid and threatens him, so the kid shoves him away. Since the bully didn't touch the other kid, the victim may be the only one punished.

There's a bad taste for zero-tolerance policies because of the way they are interpreted. Some schools enacted zero-tolerance policies surrounding guns, and kids were suspended for drawing pictures of them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

More likely they will pile in and beat the bejasus out of you.

My entire perspective on this isn't so much about beating the leader. It's about hurting one of the people in the group really bad. If you can get that person to scream in pain then it helps to take the fight out of the other people. The key factor is that the pain has to cause them to scream. It's the screaming in pain that makes humans uneasy.

Instinctively when we hear someone screaming in pain, we naturally want to stay away. We don't naturally run towards the thing that is screaming like they are dying.
Case in point. Either that or they really hate this kid.

Most people will continue to fight if no sound is made, I guess it works like it does with bears. They say yell and make noise if you come across a bear. If you hear an animal dying in the bush, then you aren't going to volunteer to see what's eating it. If you are able to hurt one person enough then it breaks the focus of everyone trying to beat you up. Now you have an opportunity to redirect their attention to help their friend. If you can get the person to scream the make up stuff like instantly say "dude you better get your friend to the hospital" even if you know that your attacker doesn't need to go to one. So long as you break that focus and redirect it so that it's not on you.

 

[Tez3]

I think you may be using a different connotation of "zero tolerance".

No, it's exactly the same as yours. The chances of violence in schools though is cut down immensely because we have teachers and teaching assistants in the playgrounds during break and lunchtimes keeping an eye on the students, this cuts down all violence. The children are not left unsupervised in school time.

If you can get that person to scream in pain then it helps to take the fight out of the other people. The key factor is that the pain has to cause them to scream. It's the screaming in pain that makes humans uneasy.

I imagine that is only true in places where people are 'soft', I can't see it working in a lot of areas I know of.

Now you have an opportunity to redirect their attention to help their friend.

This assumes they are friends, I won't bet my life on it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I imagine that is only true in places where people are 'soft', I can't see it working in a lot of areas I know of

If you want to call Baltimore, Maryland soft. Then I guess it is soft.

This assumes they are friends, I won't bet my life on it.

When you are getting jumped then assumptions are going to be what you have the most of. You either try it or you don't. If it's works, then it saves your butt. If it doesn't work then you are still in the same bad situation you were in before you tried it.

 

[JR 137]

Problem is you can't bank on it just because it's a popular film plotline. I'm not sure the followers are there just to be entertained though, often they are a gang and while there is a leader there are others who will back him/her up. this may be for a couple of reasons, firstly because they are of similar mind-set and secondly because they may be afraid that if they don't they too will be bullied. it's human nature for child to want to be in with the popular crowd or at the very least not be unpopular. there's deeper things going on that just wanting to be entertained. The crowd that forms around a school fight are those usually not in the same class or year as the 'fighters', they may want to be entertained but not the gang itself. The gang like any pack are there to cement their own positions or even move up, if the leader is defeated there will be another waiting to take their place. Sounds Machiavellian but is basic human nature sadly.

I was basing it on what I’ve personally seen and been in myself. No Hollywood.

 

[Langenschwert]

Considering the likely consequences I have mentioned (at least in the USA), what do you expect schools and teachers to do?

I wish I had the answer. Then I'd be rich. Perhaps psychological testing for both kids and teachers. You can recognize signs of sociopathic tendencies and work to curb them, generally by being empathic and nuturing before they go on to become horrible people. There is a whole book on the subject by a relative of Charles Manson (?) who is a psychologist. Pretty interesting stuff.

 

[JR 137]

I teach at a small Catholic school. This must be said...

We get several students every year who came from other schools - public and private, large and small. They come to our school because they were bullied at their previous school and want a fresh start and be in a small school environment where the teachers and administrators can help stop the bullying far easier. Sounds like a great idea, right?

They get here, and not much changes. They’re not getting beat up, and it’s not outright, but they’re definitely not problem free. We do a great job of stopping things before they become a bigger problem though. Some parents tell us their kids are being bullied, but I’ll address that later.

They graduate from here (middle school) and move on to high school where again, it starts all over again.

This is going to be unpopular, but please read the whole thing before you judge...

A lot of these kids (NOT ALL) who are being bullied by different people at different places tells me something. The kids are often doing things that are inviting the behavior. I’ve seen them follow the kids around that end up bullying them in an attempt to befriend them, but in an extremely annoying “leave me alone” way. I’ve seen the bullied kids actually start the bullying process by doing underhanded things first. Sometimes it’s a kid that has poor hygiene. But I see a ton of kids get bullied because of poor social skills.

I’m not saying they deserve it. I’m not saying they’re asking for it. No way, no how.

But what I am saying is they could surely benefit from counseling. Having a master’s in counseling (although I have no other experience), I could see cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) helping these kids. If they address the behaviors that are “inviting” (for a lack of a better word right now) bullying, it can be greatly reduced in a lot of cases. I’m not saying there will be zero bullying, as kids are kids, but it’ll be less so. I genuinely don’t see how some parents turn a blind eye to why their kid’s getting picked on when the kid is showing up with hair that’s greasy, their clothes are filthy, and they smell like they haven’t showered in weeks. Even adults keep their distance from other adults who do that, why would Kids not react to that? They’re reacting inappropriately, but remember they’re kids (that’s not a free pass for their behavior, btw).

Then there’s parents who think their kids can do no wrong. Everyone’s out to get their kids and them too. Someone says the wrong thing, and the kid’s being bullied. When we as teachers watch it and don’t have the emotion of it’s our own kids and actually see the day to day interaction instead of one side, it sometimes becomes obvious that the one complaining about being bullied is actually the aggressor and getting the negative reactions from their peers that they appear to want. I had a kid in a different school who accused about a dozen different kids at different times of bullying him. He’d follow someone around and whisper insults into their ear until the other one retaliated. Then somehow he was being bullied. After 5 or 6 people, it became painfully obvious who the real problem was.

I know, I’m sure this is going to get taken way out of context. I just had to get it off my chest. Again, I’m not saying anyone deserves it. I’m not saying everyone brings it on themselves. I’m saying if there’s a pattern, the person needs to look inward as well as outward.

MA isn’t going to be a cure by any means. It’ll help some kids, but certainly not any or every kid.