Hapkido Q&A's

[American HKD]

Dear Chris

.........Getting back to GM Ji and Sin Moo Hapkido, it seems that the Sin Moo guys do the same thing as we do in Jung Ki Hapkido but they call it "stepping." Mike or Stuart may be able to talk more about this, but from what I've seen when a Sin Moo guy talks about "stepping," they've showed me how their center has moved and the opponent's center has also moved, therefore putting the opponent in a precarious position to apply the technique on a resistant opponent without the use of brute strength. This is the same principle we apply in Jung Ki Hapkido.........



What your saying seems to be true in fact in Sin Moo in general and more so in advanced the 1st step in fact puts the Opp. off balance in way that they cant resist before the tech. is executed.

In lower ranks esspecially in beginners they're to busy just trying to get the techs. together let alone make them actually work correctly, hense set up strikes and the like which to me is still good to do anyway IMHO.


I really have to meet you guys to see what all this different HKD stuff is all about, although I have a feeling it's more the same than different!

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Stuart,

Sorry, I was trying to say what you said, came out wrong in translation from brain to hands...thanks for the correction...sorry for the misunderstanding.

Started watching the Rim/Sheya Tapes again - another weird thing is that at the beginnning of each tape, Rim actually does techniques - different ones than Sheya then does - I don't get it...

Anyone got any info on the Rim/Sheya thng?

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[Disco]

OK guys, when and where do we all meet? :cheers:

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Disco,

Well, I'm here in Chicago. I'll be in New England next June for the GM Lim Seminar series - hopefully with a busload of students.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".....Are you trying to tell me that the Hapki Yu Sool is more like Aikido vs Yu Sool/Ju Jutsu....."

Hopefully---- if what I am working to say is coming out at all right---- what I am saying exactly the opposite. If I had to put things on a line--- a continuum of difficulty (including pain discomfort) I think that the lowest end of the line would have some types of Aikido with a gradual growth to more authoritative Aikido to the yusool level of the Hapkido arts, to the more authoratatively executed forms of yu sool and finally to the hapkiyusool level of Hapkido arts. Even the Hapkiyusool level can be done with some grades of discomfort but it is almost entirely uncomfortable to learn at even its most basic level. All the groups I have met with and talked with agree on one thing regarding training: practice is going to be painful and for that reason a great many folks both Western and Korean don't stick it out for very long. At the end of my week--- training twice a day for 2-3 hours each training---- my wrists, hands and forearms were just beginning to adapt to the discomfort. The only way I found to be able to keep up with the schedule I submitted to was to simply put my mind "somewhere else" and participate with my partner as fully as I could. The second I started thinking about the pain ----everything stopped for me; being tired etc, etc----- everything stopped for me. It was a matter of just showing up, changing, getting out on the floor and doing the work. The moment I started to realize what I was doing, and what I was in for, learning stopped for me. There have been seminars and workshops that I have left early out of sheer disgust at what was happening. I have to tell you Stuart that as tired and hurting as I was day after day you could not have dragged me away from the classes that Dojunim Kim taught. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Bruce,

I imagine you would be sore if you don't train that much all the time.

The training was only Ho Shin Sool mostly from wrist grabs or clothes, bear hug, etc.?

Also you're saying the tech involve much pain and PP tech. as well as off balancing
that sounds like Hapkido to me. Not a different MA?

If they did kick what types were used and how?

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Let me just say I am not saying that GM Ji's Hapkido is not good! It just has lacked some of the things I consider important. I will also say that my experience with Sin Moo is limited and am open to learning new things as long as they are in line with what I consider true Hapkido.

I will be holding a freindship training session at my dojang in November open to all who would like to join us. I will post the exact date as soon as I look at my day timer. There will be a small fee to help with the upcoming TKD Times interveiw with GM Lim. :asian:

In freindship and peace.

www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

"...I imagine you would be sore if you don't train that much all the time......"

Actually I have to tell you that this was a perfect example of reaping what one sows. I have always advocated that a teacher should be participatory rather than directive, and having to get out on the floor and take falls on a regular basis from college students who may be trying to prove something has kept me in pretty decent shape for my age. When the students work out I am usually right there in line with them doing what they do as they do it. I think in some ways it sorta goads them on seeing an old fart twice their age popping through things while they huff and puff. At any rate, had I not subscribed to this approach you are probably right that I would not have been able to keep up.


"......The training was only Ho Shin Sool mostly from wrist grabs or clothes, bear hug, etc.?...."

Correct. We start with somok sool and progressed from there.

"......Also you're saying the tech involve much pain and PP tech. as well as off balancing that sounds like Hapkido to me. Not a different MA? ...."

No, not a "different MA". Its still Hapkido, just a different level of Hapkido art. It would be the same to say that when one moves up to the hapki sool level of the Hapkido arts that THAT level is as different from the hapkiyusool as hapkiyusool is from yusool---- some similarities, significant differences.

".......If they did kick what types were used and how?....." The kicks are low, hard and fast; nothing above the chest (except one) There are only 16 and there are no spinning kicks, jump kicks or exotic gymnastic kicks. I can pretty much guarentee that you already know all of the kicks by the time you are a yellow or blue belt in any standard Hapkido school. The same goes for the 16 strikes (with probably one notable exception). FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Let me just say I am not saying that GM Ji's Hapkido is not good! It just has lacked some of the things I consider important. I will also say that my experience with Sin Moo is limited and am open to learning new things as long as they are in line with what I consider true Hapkido.

I will be holding a freindship training session at my dojang in November open to all who would like to join us. I will post the exact date as soon as I look at my day timer. There will be a small fee to help with the upcoming TKD Times interveiw with GM Lim. :asian:

In freindship and peace.

www.millersmudo.com

Dear Todd,

Your opening up that's good as am I, but your statement says "as long as they are in line with what I consider true Hapkido"

That's closed again, you see if it's a new part of HKD that you never saw before or if you don't understand it you're already are condeming it!

Just a thought.

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

"...I imagine you would be sore if you don't train that much all the time......"

Actually I have to tell you that this was a perfect example of reaping what one sows. I have always advocated that a teacher should be participatory rather than directive, and having to get out on the floor and take falls on a regular basis from college students who may be trying to prove something has kept me in pretty decent shape for my age. When the students work out I am usually right there in line with them doing what they do as they do it. I think in some ways it sorta goads them on seeing an old fart twice their age popping through things while they huff and puff. At any rate, had I not subscribed to this approach you are probably right that I would not have been able to keep up.


"......The training was only Ho Shin Sool mostly from wrist grabs or clothes, bear hug, etc.?...."

Correct. We start with somok sool and progressed from there.

"......Also you're saying the tech involve much pain and PP tech. as well as off balancing that sounds like Hapkido to me. Not a different MA? ...."

No, not a "different MA". Its still Hapkido, just a different level of Hapkido art. It would be the same to say that when one moves up to the hapki sool level of the Hapkido arts that THAT level is as different from the hapkiyusool as hapkiyusool is from yusool---- some similarities, significant differences.

".......If they did kick what types were used and how?....." The kicks are low, hard and fast; nothing above the chest (except one) There are only 16 and there are no spinning kicks, jump kicks or exotic gymnastic kicks. I can pretty much guarentee that you already know all of the kicks by the time you are a yellow or blue belt in any standard Hapkido school. The same goes for the 16 strikes (with probably one notable exception). FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce

Sorry to ask the same thing again but I can't imagine that big a difference.

I still dont get the different level of HKD you mean, granted this forum might not be the place to analyze this.

A friend shipwork out would be I'm sure, but see what you can do here.

Nothing you learned or saw from Myung, or H. Whalen or JR West is like the stuff you learned in Korea?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".....Nothing you learned or saw from Myung, or H. Whalen or JR West is like the stuff you learned in Korea?....."

In a word? "No."

I can imagine that someone might be teaching a yu sool level of a Hapkido art and someone grabs that person particularly hard. The result is that suddenly that yu sool level technique doesn't work as well. The response might be to use a strike to loosen the attacker up. Another response might be to use a pressure point to make the technique a tad more effective (read also "painful") for better pain compliance. But these are just stop-gap measures that proceed from a bruised ego. Now consider that someone takes the material at the yu sool level and reworks the ENTIRE curriculum such that EACH technique, even if resisted completely will still achieve its desired result and stop the fight. Now you have moved from the yu sool level to the hapkiyusool level of the Hapkido arts. But its NOT done by being stronger or tougher but by being more accurate, more precise.

I will say again that what Mssrs. Ji or Whalen or West do is not bad or awful or terrible. Its not "inferior" or somehow "lesser." As I said before my own teacher has made a complete career of teaching at the yu sool level and is very happy with his curriculum as are his students. All I am saying is that if people want to move to another level in their Hapkido growth, the level is there for the investigation, thats all. Its the same as me and my sword training. I eclipsed, long ago, what GM Myung teaches for swordwork in the WHF. I wanted more and his introduction to the sword wetted my appetite for more. I bet Whalen would say the same about his interest in the cane, and others would probably say the same about their interest in the dan bong. The important point is that noone is going to bang on your door and beg you to grow. At some point you will hit a place where you want more. I hit that place a long time ago. I'm just regretful that it took so long to act on it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

That's closed again, you see if it's a new part of HKD that you never saw before or if you don't understand it you're already are condeming it!


I have always been open to doing things in a better more efficient way, This is how I have come to train at the Jungki Kwan. I am open to good techniqe but I have been doing this for a while and can see pretty soon when there is good technique or not so good. From what do I judge, from my teacher GM Lim and his teacher Doju Nim Choi. I would not be rude but I will be honest. I guess it depends on how one takes a critique as to wich one a person would feel.

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Bruce,

How can you condemn Master Whalen's practice? The one time you went to his dojang, you did not finish. He has been to Korea countless times, and yet after one visit, you seem to be an expert. And yet, you make insinuations against me saying that I do not refer to vigorous training? Rest assured, I have had very vigorous training, and in fact with any luck will be training with Master Whalen later in this month...

In the interim, you might want to lighten up with the judging. Seems you have an opinion or judgment on everything, including people you have never met, and people you meet but don't train with.

What kwan did you train in, in Korea?

 

[glad2bhere]

".......How can you condemn Master Whalen's practice?...."

Please identify where I condemned anyone or anything.

I didn't, did I, Frank? But I can't say that I have ever seen you let facts get in the way of you introducing discord or bad feelings where none need be. What made it so damn necessary for you to make the post that you did? Had you paid ANY attention at all to the content of the exchanges on this string you might have learned something. In fact, my own joy stems from the affirmation my experience in Korean lent to what has been some years of research into the nature of Korean martial traditions within the context of Korean culture. But learning is not what Frank is about, right? And Gawd forbid that you might sit by quietly while OTHER people learn, right? Do you know ANYTHING about what we are discussing? Doesn't really matter what the subject is, or whether you are versed in that subject or not, does it? Just leave it up to good ol' Frank to step in and say something to spoil an otherwise productive and rewarding conversation. Okay, Frank, you have done your little toxic routine. Now why don't you toddle back into the shadows and let the adults continue the discussion.

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

"......That's closed again, you see if it's a new part of HKD that you never saw before or if you don't understand it you're already are condeming it!....."

I'm not sure that logic necessarily follows. For a good number of years now I had suggested the progression of three levels of the Hapkido arts based in great amount on the parallel progression suggested among the various DRAJJ groups. What remained was actual hard evidence. If I had to draw a simile' I would say what I am speaking of is a little like the various indicators that are spoken of in astro-physics. A recent finding is that stars seen to "wobble" suggest the pull of an orbiting planet, though the planet itself can't be seen. Now, not EVERYBODY buys this but it is a popular position in that community. I would suggest that in like manner, people know that there is another level to their practice but have not actually seen the item itself. And naturally when someone comes along and points to a thing and says "there it is" a lot of folks are going to be reasonably skeptical. I think thats what I would call the response---- skepticism--- rather than condemnation. Lets face it, the US is a place where somebody is selling the Holy Grail for someone every few seconds, right?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I would suggest that in like manner, people know that there is another level to their practice but have not actually seen the item itself. And naturally when someone comes along and points to a thing and says "there it is" a lot of folks are going to be reasonably skeptical. I think thats what I would call the response---- skepticism--- rather than condemnation. Lets face it, the US is a place where somebody is selling the Holy Grail for someone every few seconds, right?

I agree! I have been saying the same thing since 1998. The difficulty most people have is that the difference between the Yu Sool level and the Hapkido or Hapkiyusool level is very subtle and frankly most Masters recognize there is a difference but are not really sure what it is! This makes sense to me as it takes a very long time and much practice to begin to understand the bio-mechanics and moovement associated with Doju Nim Choi's Hapkido style. :asian:

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

And therein might lay the only reservation I might have about getting together for a "friendship event". Certainly not everyone can pack things up and go to Korea for a couple of weeks to learn from a master, first hand. Still, I wonder if it would be doing the right thing to get together in such a manner and just share material back and forth. Do you remember that old story about the tea master telling his visitor that he had to empty his cup before any more tea could be poured in? If there were a group of people who got together, what would help the folks who would come to experience the hapkiyusool method of doing a technique from simply say things like, "oh, we do that too" or "thats the way we do our technique except for..."? Do you know what I mean? In my own case, when I returned to my students I didn't start looking for ways to teach the hapkiyusool version of things intermingled with the yu sool approach. My sense is that were folks to want to have the hapkiyusool experience they would probably want to immerse themselves in it for a weekend to the exclusion of everything else. Nothing says they couldn't go back to doing things as they have always done it, right? And some people might take tips back to their yu sool classes and that may improve their own material, right? All the same, right now, for me, there is a very clear line between the two levels and I am afraid of seeing that line blur. In the US folks have such a propensity for wanting to collect information on the cheap, and all I see it do is cheapen the information. Look what happened with TKD! Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

And therein might lay the only reservation I might have about getting together for a "friendship event". Certainly not everyone can pack things up and go to Korea for a couple of weeks to learn from a master, first hand. Still, I wonder if it would be doing the right thing to get together in such a manner and just share material back and forth.

The Freindship training sessions I have hosted are not meant to teach everybody advanced Hapkido! If 4 different Master's and 2 Instructors come I only will allow the Master level practitioners teach or share what they do. What these training sessions are for is to promote good will and freindship among all mudoin nothing more nothing less. I somone asked a question I will answer as best as I can. We all know that working out for a couple of hours will only give advanced students a taste and this is all I will do for those that are not members of GM Lim's Jungki Kwan. :asian:

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

I would like to see or expirience the difference between Yu Sul and Hapki Yu Sool?

Who's in a central area of the east coast maybe New York where we could all meet up for a day?

 

[Disco]

The difficulty most people have is that the difference between the Yu Sool level and the Hapkido or Hapkiyusool level is very subtle.

Does the subtlety stem from the amount of time given to perfect techniques or would it be based upon the natural talents of the individual?