Hapkido Q&A's

[iron_ox]

Dear Stuart,

I have to agree with you about the Rim and Sheya tapes. I have them as well and was basically asking myself all the way through "what am I watching"?

Mr. Tomlinson,

What do you mean is this how real men talk? I have trained with at least 6 Ji trained instructors and MY personal evaluation of their technique was that it was lacking. Period. Been "on the mat" with them and found myself teaching them - not visa versa. Why then would I go to him? I think as I said that most of what I quoted was what he had said in iterviews - the rest was from my personal experiences with his instructors.

As for the comment about issuing rank too freely, well, look around and see, I don't really think that calling out names here is useful - but I will say that Ji offered an 8th Dan to a prominent Chicago martial arts instructor saying they could "make lots of money together" - the Chicago instructor's reply was "sorry, I don't think I can even spell Hapkido...".

As an instructor of Hapkido, I think it is important to evaluate what I teach and ensure that it is the best for my students - so I have trained with a great many instructors - MEN form opinions based on their experience and values - YOU don't know me from Adam, haven't trained with me, or any of my students, and you want to question my "manhood" because you didn't bother to understand my posts - your statement is a contridiction and an insult.


Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[American HKD]

Dear Michael,

Thanks for the help although I can't be offended by comments like that because there so out of context to any reality.

I don't understand Kevin's Hapkido style with out "actually doing it and studying it" and the same goes for Kevin understanding Ji's style.
Kevin maybe better at what he does than the Sin Moo people he met so far.

It maybe true that Kevin saw some unskilled Sin Moo people but we all have seen unskilled MA in all styles and schools evenly across the board.

 

[American HKD]

Dear Kevin

You write.......I have to agree with you about the Rim and Sheya tapes. I have them as well and was basically asking myself all the way through "what am I watching"?.......

Is this close to the Hapkido you learned at all???

If Rim was as close to Choi as Lim Hun So was and other like master Jang etc. what were we watching and where did it come from?

 

[iron_ox]

Dear Stuart,

About the Rim Sheya tapes - I have NO clue what that stuff was...not at all close to the technique I have been taught.

In all honesty, I don't think I've spoken to anyone that has watched those that has a clue either. People from a variety of Hapkido backgrounds hasd said that the set of tapes is to quote someone "bizarre Hapkido".

On an even stranger note, a friend of my senior student tells me that he has been training with Rim and has found the techniques not at all like what was on the tapes...I don't know, maybe an example of the same type of thing as the book by Han, Bong Soo? The book hardly does justice to what he actually teaches...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Now, moving to the next level of Hapkido arts--- hapkiyusool.

I dissagree!! Hapki Yu Sool is just the term GM Kim is reserecting to be different! Advanced Hapkido or Hapki Yu Sool are one and the same. Yu Sool = Soft technique, Hapki Do = Coordinating energy Way.

I have trained with Ji's students and have found some guys that really train hard and that are good guys but as far as the technique, It does leave one asking is this really Hapkido?

I would suggest to you Mike, try to make GM Lim's next US semminar series. You would see the difference gaurenteed! I think GM Ji's technique has some value but it is definately not as advanced as Doju Nim Choi and the few students that were with him for a long time.

I know we all have different ideas and veiws on this subject, I think the important thing is to talk and train together and maybe we all can learn somthing.

I all honesty and freindship.

www.millersmudo.com

 

[greendragon]

Kevin Sogor
My comment is in the mode of judging someone you haven't met or seen before. But whatever makes you happy, it is just I feel that your time woud be better spent being positive about people instead of getting on a message board and talking behind their back.. I guess I just view the world different than you, that is what I meant about being a man. You have never met or trained with Ji Han Jae but you have this huge negative opinion of him.. I see this as pretty shallow. Go to a seminar and train with him and then you'll know. But talking negative about him on here behind his back is really not akin to the kind of "men" I associate myself with. My two cents anyway.
Michael Tomlinson

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I wanted to mention that Rim was not the cheif instructor at Doju Nim Choi's dojang! He may have been a member but he was not Choi's head instructor!

www.millersmudo.com

 

[greendragon]

Todd,
I agree with you getting together and training and sharing postive ideas is what is important. I have never said anything negative about GM Lim, and if I get a chance I would love to train with him.....

The problem I have is when people get on here and criticize and talk poorly of GM Ji although they have never met him or trained with him... I feel this is inappropriate and childish. Kind of like my toy is better than your toy.. Think what you will but by talking in this manner you bring disrespect and dishonor to yourselves and your organization. I have never heard GM Ji Han Jae talk poorly of anyone practicing Hapkido. He just says that it is good that everyone is practicing Hapkido regardless of who or what it is. Maybe some of you should set a better example for your organization because it does reflect on you and your affiliation. Be positive and set a good example.
Michael Tomlinson

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Please: no dissrespect intended with this.

I think you are misreading this whole thing Mike! I will and have been on the mat with many of Ji's students and I am not saying that they or Ji are no Good at all! I am saying what they do IS NOT HIGH LEVEL Hapkido. Some of it is not bad but as a whole from what I have seen it is not any thing like DJN Choi's original style.

You can call that childish all you want but it is true!

As far as making an organization look bad, Maybe you should talk to someone closer to home about the many things you have seen or herd about in the sin moo camp!

Look: This will never be agreed upon on the internet so maybe it is time to move on?

Rather than talk why don't we plan an open training session and all that would like to train can come in a freindly environment and workout?

:asian:

www.millersmudo.com

 

[American HKD]

Dear Todd or Anyone,

I'm just trying to figure this out?

Rim's web site and other info about Rim describes him as being 6th or 7th dan directly under Choi and the chief instructor in Choi's dojang for 5 years or so? His technique looks like I don't know what!

www.rimshapkido.com/rim.html

Also Michael Wollmenhouser is certified as 8th Dan directly by Choi, however Wollmenhouser's techniques are of Ji Han Jae tradition not the Hapkido you or Kevin subscribe to. A HKD buddy of mine gave me a copy of his curriculum to 1st dan and it's Ji's style not Choi's.

Any info on these two things

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart,

About the Rim Sheya tapes - I have NO clue what that stuff was...not at all close to the technique I have been taught.

In all honesty, I don't think I've spoken to anyone that has watched those that has a clue either. People from a variety of Hapkido backgrounds hasd said that the set of tapes is to quote someone "bizarre Hapkido".

On an even stranger note, a friend of my senior student tells me that he has been training with Rim and has found the techniques not at all like what was on the tapes...I don't know, maybe an example of the same type of thing as the book by Han, Bong Soo? The book hardly does justice to what he actually teaches...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

Dear Kevin,

Go to Rims web site and look at the techniques shown there and tell me what you think?

http://www.rimshapkido.org/splash3.html wait for this link to load go to techniques to see movies!

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Also Michael Wollmenhouser is certified as 8th Dan directly by Choi, however Wollmenhouser's techniques are of Ji Han Jae tradition not the Hapkido you or Kevin subscribe to. A HKD buddy of mine gave me a copy of his curriculum to 1st dan and it's Ji's style not Choi's.


Master Mike's only certification from DJN Choi was 1st dan. :asian:

www.millersmudo.com

 

[Disco]

I am saying what they do IS NOT HIGH LEVEL Hapkido.

I realize that seeing is believing, but until everybody can gather to practice, all we have is this venue to exchange information. Todd if I may, what exactly is considered high level? Could you give us some kind of example of what you mean. Thanks in advance for your reply.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Stuart, well, you've made me want to pull out the Rim videos again...two reasons - I don't remember most of the stuff on the web site on the tapes and I noticed on the site Joe Sheya is not mentioned at all...maybe something more deep than we know is at work here.

The techniques on the web site have a familiar look, but I execute them with much tighter circles and movements. However, the web techniques may be exaggerated for illustration...not sure there.

Mr. Tomlinson,

Listen dude, if you can rebutt what I've said, feel free. But your four posts look like whining to me. When someone, anyone, makes a public statement, like saying "I am the founder of..." the statement is open to critique - I don't need to train with anyone to question their public statements. Further than that, I use statments made by the subject himself, again open for critique. I openly admit I have not trained with him, but some of his students - now, I did train (25 years ago) with a Sung Moo Kwan instructor who to this day I respect and speak to often.

I believe that students of black belt and above should be a representation of the school where they train. With the very notable exeption of the Sung Moo Kwan instructor I have mentioned, the others have had technique that is not very strong -

A review of your other posts reveals a strong inclination toward namecalling when you do not agree with the tone or content of a post (childish, eh?). And frankly, Stuart and I (for example) were having quite a civil discourse before you swept in on your soapbox. If you believe that a discussion where opposite view paoint are raised and dicussed, or even debated, about someone that is a "public figure" is talking behind their back and somehow those doing it bring "shame" to their organizations; I say this, I would rather be shamed in the truth than silent in a lie!

To each his (or her) own, Stuart brings much information to light that I try to absorb, even calling me ridiculous is backed up with information. I will say it here (again), Ji's technique may be awesome (it is obviously very good for some of you), but it seems that many of those graded in this technique didn't get it right, and additionally, Ji's public statements raise more questions than they provide answers.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Disco,

I don't know what Master Miller means by "high level technique" but I can say that just in my own training over the years, I have noticed that proper body mechanics and breathing control have made my techniques stronger and more fluid.

This type of change I think is only the result of repeating a technique until the action of the technique is less mechanical (e.g. thinking about it) than "natural". Hows that for a meta-physical answer?

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[American HKD]

Dear Kevin,

You wrote.........To each his (or her) own, Stuart brings much information to light that I try to absorb, even calling me ridiculous is backed up with information...........

I never never called you ridiculus, I said " What you said was about Ji was ridiculus". you can double check the post. Big Difference!

Anyway,

Yes Rim's web site the techniques look like ones we do as well, however we seem to exucte them with much more precision & power.

Also Rim's site posts many picture's of him doing techniques in Choi's Dojang most of those picture represent techniques we do too again they happen to look a bit on the sloppy side.

 

[American HKD]

Greeting,

Lugo brings up a good point!

We consider high level cirriculum wise over 1st Dan material such as:
Some more advanced level tech from a wrist grab. ( they execute faster than lower the Gup level stuff )
One hand techs, PP techs, more advanced punch, kick defence, Arresting techs and weapons etc.

Of course all material must be performed like a 1st dan, 2nd, 3rd, etc. and as Kevin said breathing, speed, power, smoothness all counts.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

I know this is going to be tough because we are dancing on the edge of some pretty heavily energized subject matter, but we could truly do people a real a service here if we can just continue to keep clear what is experiential and what is opinion, as well as what is personality driven versus what is a technical observation. Michael, I am going to address my first comment to you because I think you are having the hardest time with this, though I could be reading something into your writing thats not there.

I made the comment about GM Ji and receiving his technique because I HAVE had that experience. It was not an extensive experience. However, I note that the technique I received from him was the same that he was teaching, was the same that others were imparting to each other, was the same that he was coaching and very similar to the technique that I learned from GM Myung (Jis' one-time student). I feel safe in concluding that what I witnessed could well be characterized as typical of his approach to the Hapkido arts and can be clearly identified as "yu sool" in nature.

To Stuart I would comment that I want to respect your response as well as possible so please take my following words not as a "smart-***" comment but a genuine suggestion. Should either Lim Hyun Su OR Kim Yun Sang come to the States I would encourage you to attend one of their activities and experience their technique as they apply it. You will find that the technique will superficially be similar to the yu sool version of the technique. Were one to execute the technique in this fashion the focus is on physics such as weight, velocity, speed, balance, mass and so forth. However, in receiving the hapkiyusool version you find that the focus is on impacting the neuro-muscular system of the body. Traditionalists would say that you are "controlling the partners' Ki". Whatever. I know what I felt when I was in Korea and coming from a Western philosophical position I won't romaticize the experience.

One other comment regarding a past mention of striking in preparation for executing a technique. Pre-emptive strikes are certainly a part of the Hapkido arts at the yu sool level. There is nothing wrong with this. The reason that I was encouraged to execute the material I was learning in Hapkiyusool against a resistant person and WITHOUT a pre-emptive strike was that it forced me to be as absolutely accurate and attendent to detail as one could be. Certainly in a street situation I would probably use a strike against a larger, more resistant person. However, for training purposes and to get the very most out of my training, Dojunim Kim encourages people to eschew the strike and work against a resistant person to make them be absolutely as accurate with their execution as possible. BTW: I would not say that the Hapkido material at the yu sool level does NOT work against a resistant partner but only that the Hapkido material at the Hapkiyusool level works more readily and with greater ease than its yu sool counterpart. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Chris from CT]

Man, where do I start!?

I have been on the mat with a few of you who are discussing this. Bottom line is that no one here (at least those who I have shared the mat with) are slackers in the Hapkido skill area. (Oh, and I have been on the mat with slackers too.)

I have only been to a handful of GM Ji's seminars, but I was on the receiving end of his techniques in every one of them. Besides that, I have been on the receiving end of others who have also honestly trained with Dojunim Choi (GM Lim, Hyun-Soo, GM Chang, Chin-Il). From my limited experience, the basic principles in their techniques are very similar.

One example being that in Jung Ki Hapkido, the physical off-balancing is critical to the entry of each technique. What I am talking about here is movement of both yours and the opponent's center, not faking or striking to disorient the opponent to get into a technique.

Getting back to GM Ji and Sin Moo Hapkido, it seems that the Sin Moo guys do the same thing as we do in Jung Ki Hapkido but they call it "stepping." Mike or Stuart may be able to talk more about this, but from what I've seen when a Sin Moo guy talks about "stepping," they've showed me how their center has moved and the opponent's center has also moved, therefore putting the opponent in a precarious position to apply the technique on a resistant opponent without the use of brute strength. This is the same principle we apply in Jung Ki Hapkido.

As we have been told many times in Korea, "Same, Same, little different."

 

[American HKD]

Greeting,

Bruce I'm more than willing to come to a seminar with any of the Jung Ki guys and in fact look foward to in the near future.

Are you trying to tell me that the Hapki Yu Sool is more like Aikido vs Yu Sool/Ju Jutsu?