Ground Fighting

[Hanzou]

Everytime this comes up in a conversation about self defense, the first thing people say is that its not a good idea to fight on the ground because of multiple attackers. I could definitely see that being a problem. However, it would appear that outside of that issue, its a pretty darn good idea to know how to fight on the ground, gain a dominant position, and either finish the fight, or get out of the situation.

Here's an example;

Don't worry, its short.

As you can see, the most damaging blows take place when the larger guy is on top, pummeling him into unconsciousness. I think some knowledge of ground fighting would have helped that guy. Of course, I think some common sense would have helped him out quite a bit more. In any case, because of his highly vulnerable position on the ground, this guy could have easily been killed, or permanently injured.

You could argue that if the smaller guy would have controlled the bigger guy, his friend would have jumped in. Frankly, I'd take that chance over getting punched in the head multiple times with no way of stopping the impact.

What do you think?

 

[Buka]

I couldn't agree more.

I think the guy in the green shirt might have had some training, too.

 

[tshadowchaser]

just walking away instead of trying to be a bad *** would have saved a beating. Ground fighting may have its place but being intelligent could have saved this idiot a beating.
and once again if the bloke that got pounded had been winning I am sure the third person would have blindsided him

 

[oftheherd1]

I would always intend to stay on my feet and off the ground. The Hapkido I was taught did have ground techniques to get me back up if I ended up on the ground for some reason. Some techniques just got me away and up, some damaged the opponent in the process.

 

[cloud dancing]

Watch wado ryu and other dvds/Karate masters teach/tuaght on ground /while disABLING ONE ATTACKER throw kicks
from ground can kick genitals/knees/as high as waist and disable multiple attaCKERS
all serious karate involves kicking when down.ground fighting does not NECISSARILY mean grabs nor wrestling
kicking /feet have more power than hands /kicks will disable in 12/3/6/9 o'clock postiions
w/o any grappling.
As the insane psychiatrist said to Batman/while pouring gasoline onto him
then flicking his bick--"i think you need to LIGHTEN UP.--- I SPY

 

[Buka]

The fact the first thing people say is it might not be a good idea to fight on the ground because of multiple attackers, to me, is a martial misnomer. I'm not saying there's no truth to it, but this whole idea seems to have come from the Martial world (as I know it) as an anti grappling advertisement. Yet, I never hear "boxing isn't a good self defense art because you might end up on the ground". Or the same about Karate (again, as I know it) Us Karate guys will all tell you "I'm comfortable on the ground. When we get knocked down sparring, we immediately cover, our legs are up and we're cognizant about fighting the guy off." While this is true to some extent, I believe the karate world in general has a different opinion of it now. I think the last twenty years, since UFC 1, has changed the world of martial arts, especially Karate. And specifically, through BJJ.

I can't even count how many Martial Artists I know. Far more than in any other field, including LEOs. Since the UFC era really got under way, most of those I know started some study in a ground game. Either a supplement that came from a grappling art, or a more focused and practiced look at their own art's ground techniques. As a DT instructor in law enforcement, we included basic ground defense, as well as offense, as part of our curriculum in 1992. This was taught to us by a BJJ instructor, specifically to supplement what we already did, rather than as a straight BJJ course. It changed things dramatically, it better prepared our officers in defensive tactics. And it really opened our eyes in an allover view of training.

Before the UFC age, nobody I knew knew what a guard was. Everybody knows now. And everybody I know has either studied it to some extent or at least has played with it. Again, I'm only referencing my own world, and the people I know in it. But that's a good cross section of people, not a small study group.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Having good grappling skills for self-defense is very important. Sure in self-defense no one really wants to be on the ground because your mobility is restricted. Yet, there is a pretty decent chance that it might go to the ground. If it does I want to be the one who can dominate the situation, get up and get out of there!

 

[Transk53]

Having good grappling skills for self-defense is very important. Sure in self-defense no one really wants to be on the ground because your mobility is restricted. Yet, there is a pretty decent chance that it might go to the ground. If it does I want to be the one who can dominate the situation, get up and get out of there!

If that idiot had not been such an idiot, and was trained in something including ground work, would he at least got his hands behind his head. Did not see the arms pinned?

 

[Danny T]

For the sake of discussion let's remove the 'self-defense' aspect.
Do you want to be an excellent fighter in as many environments that there is even a remote possibility of being in?
How about learning to effective vs a blade, a firearm, a stick, a baseball bat or whatever?
In the truth of fighting; boxing, muay thai, karate, tae kwon do just for examples Grappling/Wrestling/Clinching/Seizing/Grabbing/Tripping/Throwing/Falling happens. Going to the ground HAPPENS!!
To be an excellent all around fighter whether for your personal pleasure, self-defense, or whatever your reason learn to handle yourself on the ground. Otherwise you are in denial.

 

[EddieCyrax]

bigger lesson from this video is "know your limitations"

1 vs 2 = bad for you
1 vs 2 individuals that out weigh you by alot = bad for you

1 vs 2 where monkey dance concludes and they walk away - why are you still following them???



On Topic
I believe having knowledge on the ground is only a positive. If ever in a self-defense mode my goal is to stay on my feet, but if taken down I want to ensure I have enough skills to survive.

 

[mook jong man]

No one helps anybody these days do they?
Instead they just get their phones out , start filming and put it up on the Internet as fast as they can.

I think it's time for people to put the bloody camera phones down and start intervening in these things.
The guy was obviously an idiot , but he was already beaten , so why the need to sit on his back and keep hitting him.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

If that idiot had not been such an idiot, and was trained in something including ground work, would he at least got his hands behind his head. Did not see the arms pinned?

I didn't have time to watch the video this morning. However, the world is full of idiots. There are lots of them. If we could get people not to monkey dance as much the world would be a much nicer place!

The point I made is that grappling skills for self-defense are very important even if you do not want to be on the ground. (which you should not because of your mobility being restricted) Yet, you might be taken there so they are very important to know. I personally believe every martial practitioner who is interested in self-defense should have training in weapons/tools, kicking, hand strikes, trapping and joint manipulations and grappling. Not to mention just as equally important is training in awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, legal use of force and the specific laws regarding self-defense in their state, country, etc. If you are well rounded as a martial practitioner you will hopefully be in a better position to protect yourself and your loved ones if needed!

 

[Transk53]

I didn't have time to watch the video this morning. However, the world is full of idiots. There are lots of them. If we could get people not to monkey dance as much the world would be a much nicer place!

The point I made is that grappling skills for self-defense are very important even if you do not want to be on the ground. (which you should not because of your mobility being restricted) Yet, you might be taken there so they are very important to know. I personally believe every martial practitioner who is interested in self-defense should have training in weapons/tools, kicking, hand strikes, trapping and joint manipulations and grappling. Not to mention just as equally important is training in awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, legal use of force and the specific laws regarding self-defense in their state, country, etc. If you are well rounded as a martial practitioner you will hopefully be in a better position to protect yourself and your loved ones if needed!

Thanks and well put. It has to be as I eased into that reply! The latter I am well versed in, not the former. However, grappling I do know about, but what level, if any, I don't know, but that to me that set seems unorthodox, which I do know well. Food for thought, thank you Brian

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Its simple if you want to be a complete martial artist and are a striker then you better learn the basics of ground work. (As well as learning how to fight with your back against a wall or in a space that confines your mobility)

Just like a grappler should learn the basics of striking while on their feet.

My ground game could allow me to easily finish a person on the ground but its the last place i want to be since the ground could be used as a weapon, limits your mobility and is a very bad place to be when fighting an armed opponent or multiple opponents.

 

[drop bear]

The ground decision is about dealing with a potential threat over an actual threat. So you worry about getting a beat down by that one guy before you worry about the beat down by the five mysterious random guys.

And of course the only way to get up off the ground is to have ground skills.

I go the ground all the time in fights. I have been kicked in the head by a bystander once. And then a mate of mine clamped him. Like anything it is about situational awareness and working to fit the situation and not working to a script.

Did that last weekend dropped a guy in a scarf. His mates came over and told me to get off him. I said I would if they take care of their mate. They did. Everybody was happy.

Now I can get up seriously fast from a scarf hold so the threat is not as bad as people think.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just like a grappler should learn the basics of striking while on their feet.

I used to think this is true but not any more. A striker definitely need to learn some grappling skill, but a grappler may not need to learn the striking skill.

When a striker punches a grappler, if that grappler can "wrap the striker's punching arms and take him down right at that moment", he doesn't need to learn the basics of striking. When an octopus fights against a shark, that octopus doesn't need to have sharp teeth as along as that octopus has good wrapping skill.

You run toward me, swing your arms, and try to knock my head off. I also run toward you, have no intention to punch you, concentrate 100% on using both of my arms to wrap your arms. Will you be able to hit on my head first, or will I be able to wrap your arms first? It will be very interested to test this 100 times with your training partner, record the result, and share the result in this forum.

 

[Buka]

The ground decision is about dealing with a potential threat over an actual threat. So you worry about getting a beat down by that one guy before you worry about the beat down by the five mysterious random guys.

And of course the only way to get up off the ground is to have ground skills.

I go the ground all the time in fights. I have been kicked in the head by a bystander once. And then a mate of mine clamped him. Like anything it is about situational awareness and working to fit the situation and not working to a script.

Did that last weekend dropped a guy in a scarf. His mates came over and told me to get off him. I said I would if they take care of their mate. They did. Everybody was happy.

Now I can get up seriously fast from a scarf hold so the threat is not as bad as people think.

Yeah, you can get up from a scarf hold because you're strong, but I'm 139 pounds and when I'm rolling with heavier people, and everyone I train with is heavier than me, when I'm caught in a good scarf, I'm screwed. The threat is real to me, I gotta stay out of that.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, you can get up from a scarf hold because you're strong, but I'm 139 pounds and when I'm rolling with heavier people, and everyone I train with is heavier than me, when I'm caught in a good scarf, I'm screwed. The threat is real to me, I gotta stay out of that.

When I have him in it. We tend to wrestle to be on top or to stand up though

 

[Buka]

When I have him in it. We tend to wrestle to be on top or to stand up though

Ah, okay, gotcha. Man, I love to be on top, but, alas, I'm usually in bottom game.

 

[drop bear]

Ah, okay, gotcha. Man, I love to be on top, but, alas, I'm usually in bottom game.

Yeah a lot of people go to their back. I personally believe there are two different strategies involved with a top game and a bottom one. For the streets I am on top or standing.