God

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by qizmoduis
As Blindside already pointed out, you didn't rebut my points, you simply disagreed, vehemently in some cases. The dismissive attitude was yours, not mine, and is unfortunately all too common. Again, I would suggest that, in order to avoid being stereotyped, don't respond in a stereotypical way.

Regarding my reference to peoples' beliefs about atheists, I admit to exaggerating quite a bit. To be more precise, and less inflammatory, I should have stated it thus: The vast majority of people in this country believe that atheists are immoral. There are, demonstrably so, large subgroups of believers that hold additional beliefs about atheists, including the ones that I mentioned. Our illustrious president's own father once suggested that atheists like myself should not be considered as citizens of this country during his presidential campaign. There are probably between 20 and 40 million atheists in our country right now, but how often do you ever see any of us actually speak up? I can assure you, it isn't due to any additional apathy beyond the current background level in this country. What do you think would happen to a political candidate who admitted to being an atheists, even if he/she had an outstanding record of philanthropy, generosity, and general morality?

And as usual, in a discussion where folks were asked to reveal their beliefs, the atheists are attacked, simply because they do not share your beliefs. I've found, that my simple existence is offensive to many people.

Not once did I ever make judgements of believers in my posts. All I did was express my opinions of RELIGIONS. You chose to take those opinions are attacks on your person. Whose fault is that?

Finally, your accusation of narrow-mindedness on my part is extraordinarily ironic. You, I'm sure, won't agree.

May be you should reread your post again. You are attacking religion and religious people as a group. You sugar-coated it by calling that "expressing your view". To you, that absorb you and allow you to claim self righteousness. No one here attack atheists, other than rebutting atheists attack on us. All the posts here are basically atheists attacking religions and religious people. Your victimization mentality is clouding your view.

 

[qizmoduis]

Originally posted by PAUL
Actually, this debate flared up within about the last hour or so. I was at work writing a response to you, and by the time I got around to posting, there where pages of writing in fromt of me.

Guys slow down! I have to catch up here! :CTF:

Sorry. This is what happens when I have to spend too much time compiling large amounts of code.

Either that or I practice techniques in my office. That gets me weird looks. Especially Fleeing Chicken, since I need a bit of hallway space for that.

 

[Jill666]

Well any religion, like any other system created by men will be faulty, since we are faulty. I'm leery of any religion at this point as all have people at their head. "Men are weak". Maybe so.

True, faith in the hands of people can become a very ugly thing, manifesting in the weirdest ways. So what do we do? I've chosen to do nothing. Maybe not the best choice, and very unpopular with my family, but I can't buy into a religion wholesale, and really don't get anything out of showing up at a structure to do my own worshipping, since I don't believe in God.

Although I don't necessarily disbelieve in God- I do not call myself an atheist. I can't say I'd never return to Christianity. I do believe in chemistry. I find the human body an amazing thing, and trained in western medicine I enjoy healing it. I do feel there is a life force or chi, and am trying to learn more about that aspect. That doen't make me a Buddhist. I believe there is power in the earth itself, and anyone who has spent the night in a forest will know what I mean. That doesn't make me a Wiccan or Pagan, but there is a system of beliefs there I feel makes a lot of sense.

Meanwhile, I study ECG interpretation, give medicines and change dressings, I encourage my patients to go to activities and call their minister when they are dying. And I learn how to inflict pain or injury even to death, so I can keep living. If I live long enough, maybe I find something I can believe in with all my heart.

Maybe not.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by qizmoduis
That's somewhat appropriate, but the real question is this: Does the intent or the "evilness" of the person diminish the damage done by the weapon? It is true that "evil" isn't an attribute of the art, or of the weapon. But regardless of intent or attitude, if I hit you in the throat with a swordhand, you'll still die. And, in the same light, if a child is taught to be unworthy, he/she will fell unworthy.

I'm not speaking of religious nuts here. My experience is quite mainstream. My family are as non-nutty as you can imagine. They're simple, lower-middle-class American Roman Catholics. Nothing weird, nothing crazy, just simple believers who brought me up the same way they were brought up.

What are you talking about? What kind of religion that teaches children that they are unworthy? Something is seriously wrong in your household. Don't blame it on the Roman Catholic Church or any church, for that matter.

The first paragraph is ******** and you know it. Just admit that the intent of the religion is good, only that evil people distort it to cover their own evil design.

As I have stated, it is the people who are responsible for the problems, and NOT religion itself. It is the people who distort the intent of religion to feed their own crooked design. It is the criminals who misused martial art to maim and kill. It is the criminals who fire the bullets that kills.

 

[Jill666]

Actually, those weird looks are probably a good thing.

Gotta keep those office dwellers on their toes.

 

[qizmoduis]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
May be you should reread your post again. You are attacking religion and religious people as a group. You sugar-coated it by calling that "expressing your view". To you, that absorb you and allow you to claim self righteousness. No one here attack atheists, other than rebutting atheists attack on us. All the posts here are basically atheists attacking religions and religious people. Your victimization mentality is clouding your view.

You're partially correct. I'll agree that I'm expressing opinions that attack religions and religious thought patterns. I'm most certainly NOT attacking religious people, other than disagreeing with them.

I should say, that it isn't everyone here attacking atheists, but rather YOU. There are plenty of other believers here that didn't pop off like a rocket when an atheist dared to express their opinions. You, however, took it personally. You claimed we were ignorant and arrogant, and then got offended when I, and some others, chose to respond.

It's probably best we discontinue this particular thread of contention. We're on a path that has no conclusion but hurt feelings, and I'm not interested in that.

I want to point out that I don't claim to be the final arbiter of all that is known and will be known. I'm as full of faults and frailties and failures as the next person. I'm wrong all the time and have no problem admitting when I don't know the answer to something. Everyone has boughts of self-righteousness, and I'm certainly no exception.

 

[qizmoduis]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
What are you talking about? What kind of religion that teaches children that they are unworthy? Something is seriously wrong in your household. Don't blame it on the Roman Catholic Church or any church, for that matter.

The first paragraph is ******** and you know it. Just admit that the intent of the religion is good, only that evil people distort it to cover their own evil design.

As I have stated, it is the people who are responsible for the problems, and NOT religion itself. It is the people who distort the intent of religion to feed their own crooked design. It is the criminals who misused martial art to maim and kill. It is the criminals who fire the bullets that kills.

What is original sin? (Roman catholic centric, I know).

 

[qizmoduis]

Originally posted by Jill666


If I live long enough, maybe I find something I can believe in with all my heart.

Maybe not.

Maybe you don't need it. When I left religious activities behind, there was no hole in my life. When I realized I didn't believe in God, there was no hole in my thoughts and in my feelings. Religion and theism was grafted onto me, it wasn't a part of me.

 

[Blindside]

What are you talking about? What kind of religion that teaches children that they are unworthy? Something is seriously wrong in your household. Don't blame it on the Roman Catholic Church or any church, for that matter.

In the Roman Catholic church you need to be cleansed of your sins by a priest, and the way sins are set up, you can't be human and not sin. (The definition of the word sin is "to miss the mark.") According to church doctrine if you are not clean you cannot go to heaven, that is the purpose of the last rites.

In most protestant Christianity it is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior that will act as the cleansing agent or filter when you go to heaven.

Either way, both sects teach that you can't be human and be acceptable to heaven without doing something extra. Following that chain of logic, a human being simply human is not worthy of heaven.

Lamont

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

@ Qiz

No. I only state that you are wrong and ignorant in your attack on religion and religious people. I don't condemn atheists for their belief. Never did I once state that atheists are to be condemned for what they believe. I am only pissed that when atheists are telling me what I think, or what I believe, when they have no idea what I think or believe. I don't pound on you for how you want to live your life, rather you have no business in telling me how I am living my life.

I have been saying that you are wrong in generalizing religious people as mindless idiots who can't think for themselves. And you are wrong in condemning religion for the crimes committed by people who misused religion.

Did you see me condemning the atheist's way of life?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Blindside
In the Roman Catholic church you need to be cleansed of your sins by a priest, and the way sins are set up, you can't be human and not sin. (The definition of the word sin is "to miss the mark.") According to church doctrine if you are not clean you cannot go to heaven, that is the purpose of the last rites.

In most protestant Christianity it is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior that will act as the cleansing agent or filter when you go to heaven.

Either way, both sects teach that you can't be human and be acceptable to heaven without doing something extra. Following that chain of logic, a human being simply human is not worthy of heaven.

Lamont

Sure, some nuts will adhere to that, by the book. Today, the Roman Catholic church does not judge. If your heart is clean, you will not be condemned. If your remorse is sincere, you are forgiven. By the way, religion is not just about finding a place to go after you check out! Heck no. There is a lot more than that. How you live your life on earth is of paramount importance. Love thy neighbors are not empty words (although some people take that too literally ) You have a mission in this life, not just screw around and check into paradise later.

 

[qizmoduis]

Originally posted by Blindside
In the Roman Catholic church you need to be cleansed of your sins by a priest, and the way sins are set up, you can't be human and not sin. (The definition of the word sin is "to miss the mark.") According to church doctrine if you are not clean you cannot go to heaven, that is the purpose of the last rites.

In most protestant Christianity it is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior that will act as the cleansing agent or filter when you go to heaven.

Either way, both sects teach that you can't be human and be acceptable to heaven without doing something extra. Following that chain of logic, a human being simply human is not worthy of heaven.

Lamont

Exactly my point. Thanks for expressing it so succinctly. One of these days, I'll figure out how to do this!

 

[qizmoduis]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm

@ Qiz

No. I only state that you are wrong and ignorant in your attack on religion and religious people. I don't condemn atheists for their belief. Never did I once state that atheists are to be condemned for what they believe. I am only pissed that when atheists are telling me what I think, or what I believe, when they have no idea what I think or believe. I don't pound on you for how you want to live your life, rather you have no business in telling me how I am living my life.

You said atheists were arrogant and narrow-minded, who rejected god-belief out of ignorance. I never claimed anything about YOU personally, nor did I have anything to say about how you live your life. It is not my fault that you took my explanations concerning MY beliefs as a personal attack on YOU.

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm


I have been saying that you are wrong in generalizing religious people as mindless idiots who can't think for themselves. And you are wrong in condemning religion for the crimes committed by people who misused religion.

You are putting words in my mouth (ok, on my monitor). But, I will say, that you cannot separate religion from the crimes, since it is the religion itself, and it's power structures, that enable it's misuse. In fact, I submit that the misuse of religion is actually part of what gives it such power as it has and has had in the past.

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm



Did you see me condemning the atheist's way of life?

I saw you condemning atheists as ignorant and arrogant. I never condemned your way of life.

Oh, and you are absolutely incorrect about the church's teachings on original sin. Allowing the possibility that a person can escape their human heritage of "sin" is not any kind of a change in their teachings, just a modern waffling on the subject so they won't be viewed as bigotted against non-Catholics.

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by Blindside

Either way, both sects teach that you can't be human and be acceptable to heaven without doing something extra. Following that chain of logic, a human being simply human is not worthy of heaven.

Lamont

To throw some more coals on the fire

Is it so hard to except that humanity is flawed? Isn't that what other religions that have a beleif in reincarnation basically teach? That you are reincarnated to atone for sins of the past to eventually reach enlightenment,nirvana,etc....?

 

[Blindside]

Today, the Roman Catholic church does not judge.

Errr, what?

Wasn't the 1996 Papal Convocation that decided that sex WITHIN marriage, that was not expressly for the purpose of conceiving children, was "in moderation" not a sin?

That sounds like judgement, it sounds like judgement of the most minute parts of a Roman Catholics life.

The Roman Catholic church is most certainly not in the business of rubber stamping someone's passport to heaven. A homosexual with a pure heart is not considered pure, nor a murderer. The Church passes judgement on what is and is not acceptable. That is the very reason for its existence.

Lamont

 

[Jill666]

I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "Sex that leads to Hell isn't safe". Implying that exramarital sex or homosexual sex will result in you going to hell. I couldn't believe someone would want to put a judgement like that on their car. It made me so nuts, I started to rip it off, then realized I may actually be caught and arrested for some stupid property crime because of this jackass. :angry:

The fact that a church feels it appropriate to make a judgement like that is just the knid of thing that drives me further away. Of course, anyone has the right to believe what they want and put it on their car. Too bad it's something so hateful.

 

[Blindside]

Is it so hard to except that humanity is flawed? Isn't that what other religions that have a beleif in reincarnation basically teach? That you are reincarnated to atone for sins of the past to eventually reach enlightenment,nirvana,etc....?

I don't have any problem with humans being flawed, how can a collection of cells driven by a collection of neurons be considered perfect? Look at all of the useless accessories we are provided with, a completely useless organ in the appendix, patches of hair on our underarms and groin that don't have any insulative properties, and an overly large brain that gets us into silly debates like this.

Perfect, naw, but it is up to us to muddle through the best we can.

Lamont

edited to add another quote

“The distinctive human problem from time immemorial has been the need to spiritualize human life, to lift it onto a special immortal plane, beyond the cycles of life and death that characterize all other organisms.”
~Ernest Becker

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by Blindside
I don't have any problem with humans being flawed, how can a collection of cells driven by a collection of neurons be considered perfect? Look at all of the useless accessories we are provided with, a completely useless organ in the appendix, patches of hair on our underarms and groin that don't have any insulative properties, and an overly large brain that gets us into silly debates like this.

Perfect, naw, but it is up to us to muddle through the best we can.

Lamont

edited to add another quote

“The distinctive human problem from time immemorial has been the need to spiritualize human life, to lift it onto a special immortal plane, beyond the cycles of life and death that characterize all other organisms.”
~Ernest Becker

Debate are good though they really make think,well most in most cases.
Besides You just don't realize that I'm right and everyone else here is wrong and if you disagree with that well... your wrong again.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Blindside
Errr, what?

Wasn't the 1996 Papal Convocation that decided that sex WITHIN marriage, that was not expressly for the purpose of conceiving children, was "in moderation" not a sin?

That sounds like judgement, it sounds like judgement of the most minute parts of a Roman Catholics life.

The Roman Catholic church is most certainly not in the business of rubber stamping someone's passport to heaven. A homosexual with a pure heart is not considered pure, nor a murderer. The Church passes judgement on what is and is not acceptable. That is the very reason for its existence.

Lamont

Jesus!! You were talking about the last rite and all, regarding passport to heavan. So, I was referring to the fact that, if you ask the Church if your uncle on his deathbed is going to heavan or hell, you will be told that ONLY God can judge and that the Church will not judge him. The Church will not say "Pay for this last rite and he is good to go, buddy!" Neither will the Church says "Your homo uncle is gonna rot in hell, buddy"


"..The Church passes judgement on what is and is not acceptable. That is the very reason for its existence...."

WRONG! You don't know what you are talking about, with such exaggerated simplification. I don't even know where to begin to correct you, less this turns into an evangelical adventure. Since you have already decided Christianity isn't for you, I am not going to waste my time.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Jill666
I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "Sex that leads to Hell isn't safe". Implying that exramarital sex or homosexual sex will result in you going to hell. I couldn't believe someone would want to put a judgement like that on their car. It made me so nuts, I started to rip it off, then realized I may actually be caught and arrested for some stupid property crime because of this jackass. :angry:

The fact that a church feels it appropriate to make a judgement like that is just the knid of thing that drives me further away. Of course, anyone has the right to believe what they want and put it on their car. Too bad it's something so hateful.

Look, in this country, you can go register your own Church today as a tax-exempt religious organization. Then you can appoint your self the founder of your religion. You can write your own Bible or interpret the Bible anyway you want, as long as you don't practice anything that violate the penal codes.

People should not attribute every nut case to Christianity.