E
Elfan
Guest
Originally posted by Zoran
Wife is Russian Orthodox. Our holidays are based on an older version of the calendar. Before the Catholics changed it.
Example:
Christmas falls on 12/25. On the Old calendar 12/25 is on 1/7. So I get to have 2 Christmas holidays.
heh lucky you, the Eastern Orthodox people I know just get to wait until the 7th, no fun on the 25th for them.
J
Jill666
Guest
Not at all your fault you caught me at the wrong time of year- I do tend to be reactionary to the topics of religion or God (from about early November to February).
I grew up Catholic. My childhood wasn't pleasant, and religion became a bizzarre backdrop for other things-
I have read your post. I am truly pleased you have beliefs that sustain you and make sense to you. Also, you opened up a great deal, which couldn't be easy.
I have studied a number of religions and thought I had the answer a number of times, just to find I don't even know the question. And frankly, I don't care. I try to grow and be a decent, honest person. I usually fall short. Who doesn't?
My husband on the other hand, has recently been "saved" and seems to think I should be too. I'm hoping my 9-year marriage gets through this. So, yup, your candor got rewarded with a knee-jerk response that you didn't deserve.
I can't reason out my beliefs, and lack much of the education to match many here, so that's all for now...
Peace out
I grew up Catholic. My childhood wasn't pleasant, and religion became a bizzarre backdrop for other things-
I have read your post. I am truly pleased you have beliefs that sustain you and make sense to you. Also, you opened up a great deal, which couldn't be easy.
I have studied a number of religions and thought I had the answer a number of times, just to find I don't even know the question. And frankly, I don't care. I try to grow and be a decent, honest person. I usually fall short. Who doesn't?
My husband on the other hand, has recently been "saved" and seems to think I should be too. I'm hoping my 9-year marriage gets through this. So, yup, your candor got rewarded with a knee-jerk response that you didn't deserve.
I can't reason out my beliefs, and lack much of the education to match many here, so that's all for now...
Peace out
What is your definition of ignorance? I would argue that what you are viewing as ignorance (lack of education or information) is actually just the opposite. It is the access to more information regarding human psychology and behavior that makes such statements perfectly valid as a opinion.
The posts on this thread have shown alot of people who have researched and have described what and why they believe the way they do. That is most certainly not ignorance.
Lamont
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
When people say that religion is a clutch, they have NOT a clue what grace and faith mean. They have never felt it nor experienced it. They have no clue how it enriches one's life and enables a person to blossom beyond the confine of the atheist's limited existence. Yet they seem to see fit to generalize all the religious people as weak. It is not only ignorance, but also arrogance.
F
fist of fury
Guest
In my opinion ignorance isn't necessarily a lack of education or information. To me it's the laziness in that people will accept almost everything they hear without researching it themselves. Do you believe it because it's what you believe or because it's what you were told to believe. Religious intolerance is another form of ignorance, people who feel they have to convert the world by cramming thier belief's down others throats. I speak from experience as I used to be like that and then one day I finally wised up and realized people can believe what they want and it isn't my place to change thier mind. I agree most people that have posted on this thread have researched and believe what they do because of thier own discoveries they used intelligence and not just followed the crowd. Unlike many today who just follow like a mass of mindless cattle.
On ignorance: Given my history, I can absolutely state with all confidence that my lack of belief in a deity-concept is NOT based on ignorance. In my experience, the opposite is true. It is most often the case, that such claims about atheism arise out of a provincial and credulous mindset that is generally incapable of objectively analyzing an opposing stance on a set of beliefs that has been ingrained from birth (in whatever form). Most people in the US think that atheists are evil, immoral, satan-worshipping, baby-killers who should be thrown out of the country. They have been taught such things by their religious leaders, and actually believe it. I've been told such things to my face by more people than I can count. I was taught of the evil horrors of atheists while growing up.
I do believe that religion is generally a crutch for people, for whatever reason. It is also, in a larger sense, a power structure that allows folks to be manipulated in subtle and very insidious ways. What better way to control people then through their beliefs? With religion, there is always a way to motivate believers, by setting up and controlling their perceptions of "the others"; those who do not share their beliefs. Often, the others become scapegoats for the power-mongers. History bears out my viewpoint. Religion may occasionally benefit individuals, but such benefits are temporary. In the long run, religions can only do harm, both personally and on a global scale. Most of the time, the personal harm of a religion is insignificant and only involves small prejudices, loss of critical thinking ability and objectivity, etc.
Witness the constant manifestations of nonsensical thinking: Qi, John Edwards, the Pet Psychic, UFOs, Bigfoot, homeopathics, fortune-telling, Miss Cleo, etc. All of this can be directly traced to religious training.
My opinions about religion - and this is very important to understand - are utterly distinct from my beliefs in deities. I arrived at those conclusions more or less separately, through close observation, intense introspection, harsh analysis of my own beliefs, and much reading and discussion.
But then, it's much simpler and probably more self-validating to dismiss my beliefs and lack of belief as ignorance. That very neatly sidesteps the necessity to examine your own beliefs in order to understand mine. Examining one's closely-held beliefs is possibly the most psychologically painful process a person can experience, especially when those beliefs have been taught to you since before you you could speak.
Uh......
That's more than I intended to say. Sorry about that. I get twitchy fingers when subjects like this come up. I hope I haven't offended anyone; I've tried to keep my writing as emotionless as possible, but this is such a touchy subject. I usually stay as far away from it as I can.
I do believe that religion is generally a crutch for people, for whatever reason. It is also, in a larger sense, a power structure that allows folks to be manipulated in subtle and very insidious ways. What better way to control people then through their beliefs? With religion, there is always a way to motivate believers, by setting up and controlling their perceptions of "the others"; those who do not share their beliefs. Often, the others become scapegoats for the power-mongers. History bears out my viewpoint. Religion may occasionally benefit individuals, but such benefits are temporary. In the long run, religions can only do harm, both personally and on a global scale. Most of the time, the personal harm of a religion is insignificant and only involves small prejudices, loss of critical thinking ability and objectivity, etc.
Witness the constant manifestations of nonsensical thinking: Qi, John Edwards, the Pet Psychic, UFOs, Bigfoot, homeopathics, fortune-telling, Miss Cleo, etc. All of this can be directly traced to religious training.
My opinions about religion - and this is very important to understand - are utterly distinct from my beliefs in deities. I arrived at those conclusions more or less separately, through close observation, intense introspection, harsh analysis of my own beliefs, and much reading and discussion.
But then, it's much simpler and probably more self-validating to dismiss my beliefs and lack of belief as ignorance. That very neatly sidesteps the necessity to examine your own beliefs in order to understand mine. Examining one's closely-held beliefs is possibly the most psychologically painful process a person can experience, especially when those beliefs have been taught to you since before you you could speak.
Uh......
That's more than I intended to say. Sorry about that. I get twitchy fingers when subjects like this come up. I hope I haven't offended anyone; I've tried to keep my writing as emotionless as possible, but this is such a touchy subject. I usually stay as far away from it as I can.
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
It is one thing to state your own belief, whatever that may or may not be. That is fine. People can respect that. It is another to generalize and pigeonhole other people for what they believe or do not believe. You cannot possibly know every one of them for what they have in their hearts. Who are you to judge? It makes you no better than those you seek to condemn.
F
fist of fury
Guest
I don't judge any of them until they start pushing it my face. And true my opinion maybe somewhat jaded since I live in the "bible Belt". And as I stated earlier I used to be that way I condemed people to a certain degree it was my job to save everybody from going to hell. Well it very well maybe but i was going about it all wrong. And as i got older I learned to question things and not take everything that comes from the pulpit as pure and absolute truth. Look at the average church goer and many of them do the same i've been to many different churhces in my life. Hell there are at least 2 churches of various religions on just about every street corner. I've had former friends from highschool that were having problems back then serious problems that I helped. They got invovled in the church and I've left since then and changed some of my beliefs and they will have nothing to do with me because in thier opinion I'm a back slidder sad really. As i said earlier I have my faith I'd never be able to become an athiest there's no way I could believe evolution is scientific.
Ah, OK you are talking about ignorance of faith. Which would be fair except there are lots of people just on this thread that started in different faiths and moved away from it.
That an atheists existence is limited is of course your opinion, an atheist could argue that you are deluded for believing there is a greater existence out there.
This would be exactly the cRutch that I was refering to earlier. How does faith enrich your life? Does it give you a sense of purpose? A sense of security? Moral correctness?
As a child we (hopefully) had our parents to guide and help us and to answer those tough questions (why is the sky blue?). One of the big difficulties of adolescence is the coming of adulthood and the understanding that we are supposed to now be independent. As an analogy I view the person who requires faith to be a child, dependent upon the belief there is some great parent out there who will answer take the questions you can't answer and protect you when times are hard. The atheist has to deal with life on its true terms, because they have no mythical being/structure to remove some of those mental responsibilites.
So I may be ignorant of faith, but then I'm ignorant of crack too, I can emperically view the effects and restrictions of both and decide that I want neither.
Lamont
edited because I forget to include a quote
ĀI submit that we are both atheist, I simply believe in one fewer god than you. When you can understand why you dismiss all other gods, then you will understand why I dismiss yours."
~Stephen F. Frost
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
That is generalization. I have not heard that been taught to me nor my friends. I am a Christian. But I don't harbour any negative opinions toward non-Christians nor atheists. I tend to get pissed when other people stereotype me.
This is a reflection of ignorance of the existence of a majority of Christians who neither control, nor seek to control, nor controlled by any person, any institution nor any power. Your view is a reflection of utter ignorance of the existence of free will. 99% of the Christians do not live a life as you have stereotyped. I think ignorance can be defined as " YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, YET YOU SEE FIT TO TALK"
The assertion that religion is harmful, is pure garbage. Which religion teaches people to harm, hurt and destroy? NONE. This is like saying martial art is harmful to people in the long run! YES. That is exactly what you are saying.
You seem to have mistaken the evil deed that crooks and political hacks have done using religion as cover, as the evil deed in religion itself. Just b/c some criminals use martial art to commit crime, does that criminalize martial arts? But your logic says just that!
To attribute the nonsensical garbage you listed to religion is the most absurd thing ! It is a reflection of your ignorance in generalizing being religious as being irrational. Do you think atheists alone alone have a monopoly on rationale and logic?
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
You are judging the rest of the world, based ONLY on you own exposure/experience. Do you think your experience is the universal standard that applies to every other human beings?
F
fist of fury
Guest
To me the evolution theory is non sensical thinking yet it was crammed down my throat as scientific fact.
F
fist of fury
Guest
In my opinion it applies to the majority ,but this is only my opinion the majority of religious people I have met. I have no problem admitting that I'm wrong but until I see something to change my opinion I will stick with what I beleive. Many can't think outside of the "box" turn on any religious station. Look at the children that grow up in a church do you think thier parents teach them about other religious without a bias so the child can make his/her own decision. I don't think that everyone out there that has a religious faith is an ignorant boob but my opinion is that is the majority
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
1. There are also many who started out as Christians, left to explore and later returned. So what is your point?
2. If the atheists want to accuse the majority of the people on earth as being deluded except for the atheists, go right ahead.
If you don't know, then what makes your view worth more than a pile of dog poop?
Sheer arrogance! As if you alone have a monopoly of rationality, logic and facing life head on. Sheer stupidity to assume others as having their "mental responsibilites removed". I have nothing but contempt for people who demonstrate such sheer ignorance as to pressume so much about others' lives. HOW OLD ARE YOU? How can you seriously go around assuming you know about how everyone else grows up?
Great analogy.
. Your empirical view on religion and religious people, is WRONG. But, No one cares what you want for yourself. However, when you make an ignorant statement, expect to be rebutted. 
Johnathan Napalm, you wish not to be sterotyped, yet you give a stereotypical reply. You failed to read and understand ANY point in my post, and instead of responding rationally, you counter-attacked with an emotional, baseless diatribe. I could have re-constructed your post almost verbatim from various discussions with other theists over the past few years.
That's why I don't usually engage in these debates. I cannot use reason to oppose emotion, and religions are entirely emotional.
Fist of Fury: Evolution is a different topic. For more information, you should really read up on the facts of evolution and the theory of how evolution most likely happened. Try www.talkorigins.org for good information. There is no scientific debate regarding the facts of evolution. In fact, my personal opinion is that evolution is so much an application of common sense that it's silly to deny that it happens. Arguing about the details, of course, is both appropriate and important. Modern biological science and medicine wouldn't exist without it. There is certainly no viable and reasonable alternative.
That's why I don't usually engage in these debates. I cannot use reason to oppose emotion, and religions are entirely emotional.
Fist of Fury: Evolution is a different topic. For more information, you should really read up on the facts of evolution and the theory of how evolution most likely happened. Try www.talkorigins.org for good information. There is no scientific debate regarding the facts of evolution. In fact, my personal opinion is that evolution is so much an application of common sense that it's silly to deny that it happens. Arguing about the details, of course, is both appropriate and important. Modern biological science and medicine wouldn't exist without it. There is certainly no viable and reasonable alternative.
Evolutionary theory is not a fact, it is a THEORY. A theory that is shown to be essentially true becomes a law. However, the current model for evolution is the best model out there because no other model can survive near the level of examination it has. It has problems, and those problems are being addressed by current research, just like any othe scientific issue. The counter theory of creationism really doesn't have any evidence for it, it just pokes holes in the evolution argument.
Lamont
F
fist of fury
Guest
qiz- Thanks I'll check it out
Blindside- The thing that annoyed me was it was never presented as theory but as fact. My biggest problem is at least present several thoeries and allow people to make thier own educated decisions. To me that's just as bad as what people complain that religion is doing.
I don't want to turn this into an evolution debate.
Blindside- The thing that annoyed me was it was never presented as theory but as fact. My biggest problem is at least present several thoeries and allow people to make thier own educated decisions. To me that's just as bad as what people complain that religion is doing.
I don't want to turn this into an evolution debate.
