Hawke
Master Black Belt
As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" - John 9:1
The rest of John 9 tells the story of the blind man.
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As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" - John 9:1
And so, tell me, how can one sin that they would be born blind? To me it implies existence elsewhere before birth...The rest of John 9 tells the story of the blind man.
scaryi believe that the God of the Old Testament is said to be a vengeful god that follows the sins of the parents for four more generations.
An interesting point. I myself have suffered many things... which I will not bore you with. But I never blamed God for MY suffering, and I sometimes grew from it. But it's the bashing of a babe's head against a wall, the starving of a dog to death, the neglect of a retarded man.... it's those things. The sufferers cannot grow out of these things... and often no one else does, because the suffering happens behind closed doors.
Good point, Kacey. Although I must point out that, unlike the parents, God wants to "care for us" for eternity, apparently. ?
You cannot have free will unless you are willing to accept that people who truly have free will can choose wrongly, and that those choices can have consequences for the person making the choice and others, as well. If God were to step in to protect/rescue those who suffer because people made the wrong choice, then there would be no need to strive, to choose the more noble path - because there would be no consequence for choosing the easy way; one's errors would be corrected, by God.
Only by truly leaving us to suffer for our choices - or the choices of others - can we have truly free will. Is that evil? That is a definitional statement that I cannot answer for anyone other than myself - but for myself, I see it as necessary, in the same way a mother bird finds it necessary to push baby birds out of the nest to force them to fly; without that apparent evil - without the risk of injury or death - baby birds would live a stunted life until the parents died, leaving them unable to fend for themselves. Likewise, a truly concerned God, one who wishes to see humanity learn to fly, to leave the nest, must allow suffering, to encourage growth.
You cannot have free will unless you are willing to accept that people who truly have free will can choose wrongly, and that those choices can have consequences for the person making the choice and others, as well. If God were to step in to protect/rescue those who suffer because people made the wrong choice, then there would be no need to strive, to choose the more noble path - because there would be no consequence for choosing the easy way; one's errors would be corrected, by God.
Only by truly leaving us to suffer for our choices - or the choices of others - can we have truly free will. Is that evil? That is a definitional statement that I cannot answer for anyone other than myself - but for myself, I see it as necessary, in the same way a mother bird finds it necessary to push baby birds out of the nest to force them to fly; without that apparent evil - without the risk of injury or death - baby birds would live a stunted life until the parents died, leaving them unable to fend for themselves. Likewise, a truly concerned God, one who wishes to see humanity learn to fly, to leave the nest, must allow suffering, to encourage growth.
I was very struck by Kacey's thinking here, and wanted to mention that there is in fact a branch of theology which is totally devoted to this problem, to the extent that the problem and the theological `theorizing' of it have a name: (the) theodicy. Theodicy is the often tortuous attempt to reconcile a perfect, all-good, omnipotent, omnicient power regulating every aspect of existence with the existence of apparently unlimited depths of evil. The theodicy is the name of that seemingly fundamental, unbridgable contradiction. There's a pretty good discussion of it at Wikipedia. Kacey's statement quoted above is a very elegant crystallization of what's called the free will theodicy. Some of the others strain credulity (unless you're a theologian, I suppose! :wink1. I've read theodicical arguments by distinguished logicians trying their hands at religious metaphysics, guys like David Lewis, who aren't even religious, but who can't resist a juicy philosophical problem. And the theodicy is nothing if not juicy...
My original statement is referencing the story of David and Absalom (one of the "sometimes"). You can find it online here:I have no plans of flaming you and anyone who does would show immaturity to the extreme. I thank you for your well thought out input, although I must respectfully disagree on some points.
"Sometimes rescuing an enemy child is less loving than allowing them to get hurt."
Anytime you use the word "sometimes" in this context, I must disagree. Because if even a small bit of suffering is unjustified, it is still too much.
That's assuming that 1.) Growth and maturity this side of death is the only justification optional, and out of that 2.) That death is the worst thing that could happen to you."But here's an interesting thing . . . it usually appears that the people who are bothered the most by an innocent suffering are not the innocents who are suffering."
An interesting point. I myself have suffered many things... which I will not bore you with. But I never blamed God for MY suffering, and I sometimes grew from it. But it's the bashing of a babe's head against a wall, the starving of a dog to death, the neglect of a retarded man.... it's those things. The sufferers cannot grow out of these things... and often no one else does, because the suffering happens behind closed doors.
No, they are not complaining.
But they can't.
Now the Bible never truly spells out exactly how each person will be justified, but, as Jesus replied to Peter when he basically asked the same thing about John "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." (John 21:22) That is, each of us is responsible for our own lives, God doesn't answer to us for how he justifies another-- he answers to them. But he does promise to justify them.Mt. 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of
heaven.
Mt. 5:4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Mt. 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Mt. 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Mt. 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Mt. 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Mt. 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of
God.
Mt. 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of
righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mt. 5:11 Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and
falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Mt. 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven,
for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were
before you.
Good point, Kacey. Although I must point out that, unlike the parents, God wants to "care for us" for eternity, apparently. ?
According to Hick, the suffering of this life is part of the divine plan of soul-making. A world full of suffering, trials and temptations is more conducive to the process of soul-making than a world full of constant pleasure and the complete absence of pain. Through this process, we may truly become what Hick calls "children of God".