God

[qizmoduis]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
If I have a hidden motive, I like to know what it is too.

The thing is, others have posted extensive materials and proofs. And guess what? People keep going back to square one, running in circle. Why don't you read Paul's and Abbax's posts? Those are extensive and concrete. Yet, people don't seem to bother to read them. And we have the same old things being asked in just another way. Going round and round. So?

I agree. I don't think you're hiding anything. Everybody has an agenda, whether they wish to admit it or not. Telling someone they have "an agenda" is pretty much the same as telling them they are using a computer to participate in this discussion.

Hidden agendas, on the other hand, are annoying. JN isn't hiding. I don't think anyone here is hiding anything, really.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
You were saying that if you went oversea and committed a crime, you represented America. I just pointed out that in fact America would disown you the second you ran afoul of the local penal codes. That is a fact. So, no, you don't represent America.

Sir

I tried to just agree and say yes I missed the BOAT!

It is this attitude as an individual or as a member of a group Ifind to be my problem with people.

Have a nice day

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

I simply pointed out a legal fact. US citizens committing crime in foreign countries do not get help from Uncle Sam. That is a fact. And you have a problem with that? That's just too bad.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Moderator Note:

Originally posted by Master of Blades
Everybody do everybody a favour here and try not to get the thread locked. I'm enjoying reading these posts and hearing all your views BUT if this thread does get locked........You will have to answer to ME!

THis thread is hot, but for the most part has been alot less 'in your face' than many. Its been more civil than I expected. There have been some 'ruffled feathers' and such but the majority has been ok, IMO.

Keep within forum guidelines, leave the 'personal attacks' out of it and keep it 'friendly' and we won't have reason to lock it.

With that said...please understand that neither I not the rest of the moderator team can read everything in this thread. If you see a personal attack, if it gets -flameish- please use the -report to moderator- feature. If you have a personal issue with someone, either let it go, or take it private. We will not hesitate to suspend or ban someone who gets out of control.

Thank you.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I simply pointed out a legal fact. US citizens committing crime in foreign countries do not get help from Uncle Sam. That is a fact. And you have a problem with that? That's just too bad.

Johnny Boy,

I have nothing wrong with what you said.

Paul goes out and gets facts and answers questions.

Nightingale does the same.

In my opinion, you do nothing but be contrary to a single point within a larger post.

The fact is I did not wish to get all 'bent' or to seem to be 'bent'.
so I replied I am missing the boat or point as you said, so that the matter could drop.

I have pages of un-submitted yet type replies, that I thought better of or to sleep on first. I have not gone back to them for in most people were being civil and polite and either being a constructive member to this discussion or being an informative member of this discussion. I understood your point. You were stand on the letter of the law and the written word here and else where. That is fine. I happen to disagree that it would affect the rest of the USA when an America goes abroad and commits a crime. Legally the US Government washed there hands. Yes, but does the press or the citizens or subjects of other countries? Nope!

So either add something constructive, ask a question, or be informative. And when someone tries to walk away Let them. For they either do not wish to spend all their time writing thousands of words so you can step in pick on one or two and be contrary only to make yourself sound superior and therefore right in this point and in all of your points.

If you want to stand and yell at each other. No problem. If you want to be constructive then fine. You made a point. I said yes I might be missing the point. You could not let it drop. Fine. I lost. Yet, not on one point have I heard you reply to any of my questions to admit that anyone else might be right, if they disagree with you.

Just my opinion that you are not being constructive to this issue.
Constructive criticism is fine.

You might say:
"Hey Rich, you do know that if you did something over seas the Us Consulate would give you a list of Lawyers only and walk away"

Not the following:
"Hey Rich You missed the Boat (* AGAIN *), you just don't get it (* You ignorant XYZ *)"

You see the tone of your written word is aggressive and condescending and sometimes down right insulting. Hence my Johnny Boy comment.

As for the problem there is no problem with me. I know who I am and where I stand. To find out more about me e-mail me or call me. 248-467-9454. I have no problems discussing this is over the phone or in person, with or without a beer. You see this is a discussion to me. Oh Yes I challenged my Friend Paul by asking my questions, I baited him knowing his personality. Yet, he is not mad for having to learn more, he went out and did it for himself and to educate others. He can disagree with anything I say, for you see he has said he states these are his preferences and recognizes these are the best choices and answers for himself. In My opinion, you have not and seemed to be trying to get a conflict going. To me this is No big deal.

E-mail or call me if you wish to continue this, for I believe that no one else is interested.

Just my opinion.

Now back to your regularly schedule thread.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Your insulting remarks mean nothing to me. So I don't respond in kind.

It is your problem that you are reading too much into simple statements of fact.

You went on and on running in circle on the same issue, ie blaming christianity itself for the human errors. Excuse me if I don't care to address your spaghetti mess. Paul has written extensively to explain that the religion is separated from the people who committed mistakes and crimes using religion as cover. Yet, you fail to comprehend that point. That is why you are still missing the point. Furthermore, you put words into my mouth and read that as "Hey Rich You missed the Boat (* AGAIN *), you just don't get it (* You ignorant XYZ *)" That's right! You put the emphasis there YOURSELF! So you heap insult onto yourself, where none was there in the first place. Do you know how ridiculous that is? I have to burst out laughing!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Your insulting remarks mean nothing to me. So I don't respond in kind.

It is your problem that you are reading too much into simple statements of fact.

You went on and on running in circle on the same issue, ie blaming christianity itself for the human errors. Excuse me if I don't care to address your spaghetti mess. Paul has written extensively to explain that the religion is separated from the people who committed mistakes and crimes using religion as cover. Yet, you fail to comprehend that point. That is why you are still missing the point. Furthermore, you put words into my mouth and read that as "Hey Rich You missed the Boat (* AGAIN *), you just don't get it (* You ignorant XYZ *)" That's right! You put the emphasis there YOURSELF! So you heap insult onto yourself, where none was there in the first place. Do you know how ridiculous that is? I have to burst out laughing!

Well you see Johnny boy you started this thread by stating that people were ignorant for making a comment about religion and making generalizations.

 

[Rich Parsons]

@ John

So I just was following your previous comments that you always fall back too. You insult and call people ignorant and unable to understand a state of grace. I know I do not for otherwise I would find the right words to communicate with you.

 

[Rich Parsons]

@ John,

I am just breaking everything up so you can get the topics.
I apologize being able to try to address multiple topics in one thread.

 

[Pakhet]

Dude, your experiences as a child were no doubt different, and in that I think you should count yourself as very fortunate.

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Blame your parents! Heck Christians children are taught that God loves them. Jesus loves them. The angels protect them.

That's not what I was taught. There's no need for me to go into detail, but some of the stories, movies and sermons I was forced to sit through made me physically ill...and it's really hard for a 7 yr old to sit there and take it because they're not allowed to run to the bathroom to throw up. Threats, intimidation and physical violence were the norm.

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm What are you talking about? What kind of religion that teaches children that they are unworthy?

Not just unworthy....worse than unworthy...alive because that's the rule...have lots of kids, because that's what god said and use them for whatever you want to because once they're yours they don't need much more consideration than the dog chained up in the backyard.

So...I've raised my daughter with a christian background, but she's allowed to ask questions and we discuss other religions and she can read anything she wants and then we discuss some more. because the only thing that can break the chain of religious abuse is recognizing it for what it is and making the change in yourself.

Lisa

 

[white belt]

white belt

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Pakhet
Dude, your experiences as a child were no doubt different, and in that I think you should count yourself as very fortunate.

That's not what I was taught. There's no need for me to go into detail, but some of the stories, movies and sermons I was forced to sit through made me physically ill...and it's really hard for a 7 yr old to sit there and take it because they're not allowed to run to the bathroom to throw up. Threats, intimidation and physical violence were the norm.

Not just unworthy....worse than unworthy...alive because that's the rule...have lots of kids, because that's what god said and use them for whatever you want to because once they're yours they don't need much more consideration than the dog chained up in the backyard.

So...I've raised my daughter with a christian background, but she's allowed to ask questions and we discuss other religions and she can read anything she wants and then we discuss some more. because the only thing that can break the chain of religious abuse is recognizing it for what it is and making the change in yourself.

Lisa

There are 60-70 millions Catholics in the USA alone. If your experience is typical, there wouldn't be any Catholics left! Every Catholic children would have grown up and left the Church behind already. We wouldn't be having 60-70 million Catholics and church membership would not have been growing at double digit rate.

Don't get me wrong. I do not condone psychological abuse heaped upon children for any reason. I am sorry that you have to endure what you have been through growing up. I am also glad that your daughter is well nurtured and guided.

 

[Pakhet]

I was raised Southern Baptist. Sorry about that, I should have mentioned that.

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
There are 60-70 millions Catholics in the USA alone. If your experience is typical, there wouldn't be any Catholics left! Every Catholic children would have grown up and left the Church behind already. We wouldn't be having 60-70 million Catholics and church membership would not have been growing at double digit rate.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
@ John

So I just was following your previous comments that you always fall back too. You insult and call people ignorant and unable to understand a state of grace. I know I do not for otherwise I would find the right words to communicate with you.

If you "follow[ed] [my] previous comments" , you should have come across my explaination that I am not calling atheists ignorant for their belief or lack of belief. Rather I am calling them ignorant for their claim that religious people need religion as a clutch, that they are to be manipulated, that they are being harmed by religion. And also for atheists' blanket condemnation of them as being hateful and intolerant, and hypocritical.

If you followed my previous comments, you should have read my repeated statement that I have nothing but respect for non-religious people who live an honest and decent way of life, that religious afiliation has no bearing on one's character.

 

[white belt]

1) When is now?

white belt

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Kirk

Well let me ask you this. If I took all the writings of George
Washington, and writings about him (during his time) and put
it into one book, would that make you doubt his existance and
work?

I'm not denying Jesus of Nazareth's existance, or the good ideas that he preached.

However, there is only one source stating his miracles. Historical documentation (of which there is quite a bit from that time) confirm his existance. They do not, however, confirm his miracles. The only source I've found (there may be some that I don't know about...just remember, I'm looking for historical texts, not religious ones) for those is the bible.

Its got nothing to do with the fact that its all in one book...its that its the only book.

If you put all the writings about washington in one book, that would be fine, because there would be many other writings out there to corraborate the stories.

 

[white belt]

white belt

 

[Nightingale]

JN-

Being Wiccan will not interfere with my wanting to be a teacher. It is recognized and protected under US law, and under anti-discrimination legislation. Schools are more interested in my professional qualifications (Almost a Master's in Education, Credentialed in both Elementary and Secondary, one year full time experience, four years part time experience, etc) than they are in my religion, which they aren't even allowed to ASK at a job interview, and which I do not disclose to colleagues in a professional setting, simply because it is none of their business, and separation of church and state requires me to leave my religion out of the classroom unless directly asked by a student, and then I can answer the question and simply state my own personal views without preaching or attempting to convert (wiccans don't do this anyway...we believe that those needing to follow our path will seek us out, and we don't need to actively solicit followers, because it really doesn't matter which path you're on as long as it's a good one).

The only time someone would see me and know that I'm Wiccan would be at a Wiccan function, in which case, they would be there doing the same thing I am. My religion has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to teach sixth grade mathematics, and most schools recognize this. About the only place where it might be a problem is down in the bible belt, and I wouldn't be applying for work there anyway.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
However, there is only one source stating his miracles. Historical documentation (of which there is quite a bit from that time) confirm his existance.

If you mean to say that there's quite a bit of documentation confirming his existence, I disagree--outside of the Bible, it's principally one throw-away comment by (Flavius) Josephus, isn't it? E.g., from here:

Books XII-XX, in which [Josephus] speaks of the times preceding the coming of Christ and the foundation of Christianity, are our only sources for many historical events.

[Josephus wrote:]
About this time lived Jesus, a man full of wisdom, if indeed one may call Him a man. For He was the doer of incredible things, and the teacher of such as gladly received the truth. He thus attracted to Himself many Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. On the accusation of the leading men of our people, Pilate condemned Him to death upon the cross; nevertheless those who had previously loved Him still remained faithful to Him. For on the third day He again appeared to them living, just as, in addition to a thousand other marvellous things, prophets sent by God had foretold. And to the present day the race of those who call themselves Christians after Him has not ceased.

 

[arnisador]

I want to reinforce what Mr. Hubbard said. This is a long thread and we can't read all of it. The discussion has in the large been polite and professional, in keeping with our standards; however, if there is a problem, please bring it to our attention. Don't assume we've seen it. Religion can of course be a contentious issue and we're watching this thread but it's too long to be certain that we've seen everything or can remember what comment is in reference to what (that might make it worse than it appears).

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-