Dillman vs. TCM

[RyuShiKan]

One thing I am curious about his Dillman's "no touch KO's" .................does anyone have any thing to add on those?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

One thing I am curious about his Dillman's "no touch KO's" .................does anyone have any thing to add on those?

I have seen him demonstrate these and have posted about it previously. See for example the second post in this thread.

On a related note, see this thread.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by arnisador



I heard Mr. Dillman speak about women vs. men striking open/close dhand, left/right side, toes up/toes down. Have you found this to be the case--that there is a difference?

From what I have heard women's chi flows differently than mens almost like it is reversed polarity, that is why women use different strikes for the smae results as men.

 

[RyuShiKan]

I have read that thread and wanted to hear some comments from the Dillman people.

 

[DKI Girl]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad



From what I have heard women's chi flows differently than mens almost like it is reversed polarity, that is why women use different strikes for the smae results as men.

There are many techniques that I have tried that this does work on and some that it doesn't....some of it may have to do with just not feeling comfortable with that particular technique and others that I have done often enough that they work quite well......hope that makes sense.


As for the No Touch subject.....

Could the moderators copy the posts that deal with the no touch issue onto a new topic so this post stays on topic. I think the two issues are separate and need to be talked about seperately and objectively. This thread has been going very well and I really don't want it to develop into a flame war because of different ideas and opinions on the No Touch Topic.

dki girl

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl


As for the No Touch subject.....

Could the moderators copy the posts that deal with the no touch issue onto a new topic so this post stays on topic. I think the two issues are separate and need to be talked about seperately and objectively. This thread has been going very well and I really don't want it to develop into a flame war because of different ideas and opinions on the No Touch Topic.

dki girl

How is it different from this topic?

 

[chufeng]

Quite frankly, I don't know squat about Mr. Dillman or his methods...

I do know that Oyata Sensei was very disappointed in the perceived betrayal after Mr. Dillman made claims of learning this "awesome" hidden stuff in the old Okinawan katas...

The story, as I heard it, goes something like this...

Mr. Dillman apparently had the door to the information contained in the forms opened to him by some old master...

What he fails to mention in that account is that his "enlightenment" actually occurred after spending time with Oyata Sensei...naturally, Oyata Sensei was pissed when Mr. Dillman claimed that his "revelation" was the result of working with OTHER people...Mr. Dillman gives no credit to Oyata Sensei until his second book...but even then he infers that Oyata Sensei played a minimal role in his understanding...all this during the time when Oyata Sensei was openly sharing SOME of his spotting techniques with just about every school that would have him in to do a seminar...

That said, I do believe that Dillman and his students are fully capable of performing SOME of the spotting techniques that originated in the Okinawan kata...
I don't know whether or not they fully undertand what they are doing, however...but that is not really important for this part of my discussion...

I do think that one can manipulate another's qi without physically touching them...I don't know whether one can actually cause disability or unconsciousness with the technique, though.

Everytime I've used qi manipulation, it has been for therapeutic reasons and with fully cooperative individuals...so, to make the leap that one could Knock out someone without touching him/her is difficult for me...Too many variables are involved...the results I've had with no touch qi therapy may be entirely related to the placebo effect and have NOTHING to do with actual manipulation of qi...I suspect that Mr. Dillman's successes with the "technique" of knocking someone out without touching them stems from a similar situation...someone who is willing to cooperate...I am not closed to the idea that it is possible, but it would require an unbelievable amount of control under very difficult circumstances for even a senior martial artist...IMHO

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Chufeng,

There was a magazine called: Official Karate that had an article in their 1984 July Issue. The article was mainly an interview with Mr. Oyata but they also asked Dillman what he thought of kyusho and tuite after being invited to participate and having been used for a crash dummy that day. Dillman said and I quote: "It is totally fantastic! I've been involved in Okinawan karate for over 25 years and never experienced anything like it. ".

For those of you that are in the "know" this is no big surprise, however for those of you that are familiar with Dillman and his claim of learning some good stuff from Hohan Soken must be thinking it's kind of weird since Soken died 2 years before (1982) the interview for that magazine.

I also know someone that was with Dillman the 1 and only time Dillman met Soken and doesn't seem to recall "Georgie" getting any nifty techniques or scrolls from Soken..............at least not as far as tuite or kyusho are involved.
Soken did put on a demo that DID NOT consist of any tuite or kyusho.

 

[chufeng]

Arigato for that bit of information.

I don't want to fan the flames, so I won't follow-up on that specific point.

I do think it's possible that someone can discover many things within the forms they train...there is an incredible amount of information contained within even the "simplest" of forms...it is a shame to see the crowd who would discard forms for "more realistic" training...they have no idea what they are missing....and they PISS down the martial arts to the lowest level of skill.

I am not suggesting this is the case with Dillman (remember, I left that subject)...

I agree with Matt Stone that to sample from the well of knowledge is dangerous...one must drink deeply, or not drink at all. I applaud anyone's effort to arrive at a deeper understanding of any art they choose to practice...

I do caution anyone who thinks that they can learn the secrets of an art via the internet, though...you will never get the information necessary to SAFELY practice the techniques...so, find a qualified instructor before walking that path...please.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[DKI Girl]

Well everyone....let's get back on track here. I'm not going to tell any stories that I have heard or argue with the stories that everyone else has heard or told.

I do agree that you need to have a qualified instructor to learn more about pressure points or anything similiar. Learning them without supervision can lead to some very serious issues.

dki girl

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl


I do agree that you need to have a qualified instructor to learn more about pressure points or anything similiar.

dki girl

I thought that is what I was trying to say all along.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Well everyone....let's get back on track here. I'm not going to tell any stories that I have heard or argue with the stories that everyone else has heard or told.
dki girl

Actually they aren't "stories" they are "quotes" from a magazine that anyone can read for themself.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

It has been my own admittedly limited experience that, outside the US, and when dealing with traditionally trained TCM practitioners, that the abbreviated labels are actually not used all that frequently... It seems to be another American improvisation...

Take heart my friend, it happens all the way down here in Australia as well. But then again it may be that if an instructor has trained O/S, and hasn't been to Asia, you can bet he trained in the US.

--Dave:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

We Americans tend toward the "I can do it better, no matter how much has gone before" mentality, and TCM, MA, kyusho, etc., is absolutely no different...

Given that our country is a scant two and a quarter plus centuries old, we somehow have convinced ourselves that we know enough to toss thousands of years of tradition, research, and information out the window because somehow, somehow we have managed to outdo all of that with our one limited lifetime of experience...

In searching for another analogous situation, I am reminded of a Columbo episode wherein our famed detective had just arrested yet another man who thought he had created the "perfect crime" of murdering his wife... Columbo informed him that "This was your first murder ever... This was my seventh... This week."

I think that, with a little reflection, my meaning will become clear...

For one, I am all for making learning easier, but it must be borne in mind that earning is the greatest part of learning.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

We Americans tend toward the "I can do it better, no matter how much has gone before" mentality, and TCM, MA, kyusho, etc., is absolutely no different...

Given that our country is a scant two and a quarter plus centuries old, we somehow have convinced ourselves that we know enough to toss thousands of years of tradition, research, and information out the window because somehow, somehow we have managed to outdo all of that with our one limited lifetime of experience...

In searching for another analogous situation, I am reminded of a Columbo episode wherein our famed detective had just arrested yet another man who thought he had created the "perfect crime" of murdering his wife... Columbo informed him that "This was your first murder ever... This was my seventh... This week."..............

And isn't it odd that those same people think they are making something "new" when in actuality they are just repeating the same things that have already been done long ago..........and more often than not it is the mistakes that they copy.

 

[D.Cobb]

My instructor got his first taste of pressure points from Mr. Dillman, but eventually chose to follow a different path. I can't tell you where he does his research(because I don't know), but I do know that his stuff works. He doesn't just use PP's for knockouts, but also knows how to generate the most intense and excrutiating pain I have ever felt. I do know that some of what we do can cause KO's. I know this because I was KO'd by another student who just happened to make enough contact to put me out.
I am one of these people who can be quite cynical. My martial arts base is in American Kenpo and even though I haven't trained in it for over 3 years now I still follow their saying, "To feel is to believe". If I can't feel it I won't believe it!

I know some people don't agree with what Dillman does and they're entitled to their own opinion, but my question would be, if it works in a REAL situation, does it matter where it comes from?

--Dave

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

I know some people don't agree with what Dillman does and they're entitled to their own opinion, but my question would be, if it works in a REAL situation, does it matter where it comes from?--Dave

I have no problem with stuff that works in a "real" situation.........or at least works when one try's to simulate a real situation.
However, when folks stand there like a lamp post when they attack is when I start thinking they should re-evaluate what they are doing. Pretty much anyone can defeat an non-aggressive attacker that is stationary and puts up a modicum of resistance.
Get someone to go about 50% speed and then it becomes more of a challenge and benificial training tool otherwise you are just wasting time.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Well everyone....let's get back on track here. SNIPPED FOR CONTENT BY YILIQUAN1

dki girl

I agree fully.

I think the last point I made was: Are the points commonly in use by DKI really acupuncture points, or are they in fact points that are only coincidentally co-located at acupuncture point locations?

It seems that, based on very preliminary reading stemming from this thread, that some of the points in use are used for purposes far removed from the acupuncture related effects of the same point...

Comments?

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[DKI Girl]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



I agree fully.

I think the last point I made was: Are the points commonly in use by DKI really acupuncture points, or are they in fact points that are only coincidentally co-located at acupuncture point locations?

It seems that, based on very preliminary reading stemming from this thread, that some of the points in use are used for purposes far removed from the acupuncture related effects of the same point...

Comments?

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

I think this question is going to be very difficult to answer to anyone's satisfaction. Any suggestions on how we can accomplish this?

Not sure I understand the second paragraph.....can you please rephrase it?

dki girl

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DKI Girl



I think this question is going to be very difficult to answer to anyone's satisfaction. Any suggestions on how we can accomplish this?

Not sure I understand the second paragraph.....can you please rephrase it?

dki girl

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

It seems that, based on very preliminary reading stemming from this thread, that some of the points in use are used for purposes far removed from the acupuncture related effects of the same point...

I have done a very small amount of reading in my old acupuncture textbooks regarding the indications of the use of particular acupuncture points, and attempted to cross reference a few with the manuals I have from my teacher regarding our method of vital point striking ("spotting"). I have been not all that successful thusfar in making a corrolation between some of the points (like GB20, which was cited by DKI Girl earlier in the thread) as simple KO points... In fact, some of the points are not even indicated for use in such a manner at all, but have other effects entirely...

This leads me to believe that while DKI may well be referring to the points by acupuncture shorthand labels, the points that are being struck are in fact not necessarily acupuncture points at all...

This then leads back into the ideas introduced in the Naihanchi thread that perhaps the points being struck are not kyusho but rather atemi. That does not detract from those points' effectiveness in resulting in KOs on the victim, but it does detract from the belief that the users are striking acupuncture points...

I am at work right now (for a short time, anyway). As my household goods have been shipped back to the US, I no longer have any of my manuals at hand for access... If RyuShiKan or Chufeng could perhaps shed some light on the indications of some acupuncture points, and perhaps compare them to the alleged use by DKI and other groups, it would illuminate the subject further for everyone...

Gambarimasu.

:asian: