MMA vs. TMA Training Methods: Is One Better Than The Other?

[Brian R. VanCise]

Just food for thought though that there is a whole core of BJJ techniques that are stand up self defense. Royce has an excellent book on it as well as I believe quite a bit is covered in Helio Gracies Master Text. However, unfortunately many of these techniques are not being taught in many BJJ academies at this point like they used to be.

 

[Xinglu]

LOL, I find it funny, because I think you're misunderstanding my posts here. Please, show me where I said that a TMA student would not get shot? Show me where I said or made a claim that I was an expert in gun disarms? If you read what I was replying to, rather than making assumptions, you'd have seen that I was replying to the statement SgtMac made here. I got the distinct impression from that post, that he was basically saying that those mentioned folks, would always come out on top. Also, as I've said many times, at least there are some quality disarms out there, that will offer something. I'd rather have that, than nothing at all. *edit* For clarification, I do agree, that past arms reach, you're pretty much up the creek. Within arms reach...yes, IMO, you do stand a good chance of getting control or a disarm.

See, I didn't get that impression from his post. And I made an inference about your comment, not an assumption, hence the *IF* in there We seem to be misunderstanding each-other.

Oh no, there ya go again, painting me with that same brush. . Seriously though....if you've really taken the time to read any of my posts, you'd have seen that when it comes to people making claims that things will definately work, I'm the first to say that I dont care whether it works for them, I want to make sure it works for ME, and I"M the one doing it.

I wasn't painting you with any brush, I was expounding on what you said. We agreed, I just took it further and applied to both sides of the discussion. I didn't want this to turn into an MMA bashing session and I was concerned that someone would take what you said and run with it ignoring the fact that it was only half of the argument. That's all.

Whos forgetting? I know I'm not. . I agree with this, said it many times. I've said that while things from TMA are in MMA, the application is whats different.

I didn't mean YOU, "people" was generalized not directed in a passive aggressive manner. You know me well enough now to know I don't shy away from making direct statements

Kenpo, Arnis, BJJ...those are the 3 that I train, those are the 3 that I feel blend very well for me. I dont mix them to make up my own style, but after training the Kenpo and Arnis for as long as I have, when I'm running thru techs., sometimes it just happens. I'm not thinking, "I'm going to do this or that." again, it just happens.

Exactly. You move and flow differently because of your mixed training. In fact I'm willing to bet your entire approch to combat is different then your other kenpoka, BJJ players, or Arnis practitioners who practice just the one art.

It was probably me that made that comment, but anyways.....yup, I've said that many times as well...that some BJJ techs., with slight modification, can be applied while standing. Sure, I see nothing wrong with doing that, using 1 person as a momentary shield against someone else, etc.

This comes from approching an art with a "how can I make this work for ME, how I fight, what my weaknesses are, what my strengths are and how to protect and use those.

 

[MJS]

See, I didn't get that impression from his post. And I made an inference about your comment, not an assumption, hence the *IF* in there We seem to be misunderstanding each-other.




I wasn't painting you with any brush, I was expounding on what you said. We agreed, I just took it further and applied to both sides of the discussion. I didn't want this to turn into an MMA bashing session and I was concerned that someone would take what you said and run with it ignoring the fact that it was only half of the argument. That's all.



I didn't mean YOU, "people" was generalized not directed in a passive aggressive manner. You know me well enough now to know I don't shy away from making direct statements

Exactly. You move and flow differently because of your mixed training. In fact I'm willing to bet your entire approch to combat is different then your other kenpoka, BJJ players, or Arnis practitioners who practice just the one art.


This comes from approching an art with a "how can I make this work for ME, how I fight, what my weaknesses are, what my strengths are and how to protect and use those.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, it looks like there was some misunderstanding.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just food for thought though that there is a whole core of BJJ techniques that are stand up self defense. Royce has an excellent book on it as well as I believe quite a bit is covered in Helio Gracies Master Text. However, unfortunately many of these techniques are not being taught in many BJJ academies at this point like they used to be.

The same is true of application of forms in most taekwondo schools. Sadly.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

Just food for thought though that there is a whole core of BJJ techniques that are stand up self defense. Royce has an excellent book on it as well as I believe quite a bit is covered in Helio Gracies Master Text. However, unfortunately many of these techniques are not being taught in many BJJ academies at this point like they used to be.

The same is true of application of forms in most taekwondo schools. Sadly.

Daniel

Of course, this begs the question of why is this the case? IMO, if something is that good, then one would figure it would be included.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Of course, this begs the question of why is this the case? IMO, if something is that good, then one would figure it would be included.

My guess is that somewhere along the line, kata and application became disconnected. Not that students did not learn the specific techniques in the application, but that they did not learn them in conjunction with the kata.

Could be as simple as somebody getting the idea that they could teach kata and then delve into the application of the kata for students who stuck around after black belt.

But whatever the reason, eventually, commercial minded owners figured out that they could make the same amount of money with less effort by simply running unknowing students through patterns from white belt to black belt without ever getting into the deeper applications. And eventually, that became the norm.

Daniel

 

[pmosiun1]

For the modern world, MMA training in many ways is better, punch, kick, grapple. In my opinion, the TMA training method only works for two man kata such as learning the japanese sword and not one person kata.

 

[MJS]

My guess is that somewhere along the line, kata and application became disconnected. Not that students did not learn the specific techniques in the application, but that they did not learn them in conjunction with the kata.

Could be as simple as somebody getting the idea that they could teach kata and then delve into the application of the kata for students who stuck around after black belt.

But whatever the reason, eventually, commercial minded owners figured out that they could make the same amount of money with less effort by simply running unknowing students through patterns from white belt to black belt without ever getting into the deeper applications. And eventually, that became the norm.

Daniel

Yup, sad but true. Seems like certain things get left out or watered down, to suit the masses.

 

[MJS]

For the modern world, MMA training in many ways is better, punch, kick, grapple. In my opinion, the TMA training method only works for two man kata such as learning the japanese sword and not one person kata.

Umm...you lost me on this one. This really isn't a thread on the pros/cons of kata. Daniel made a quick reference to them, while responding to a post from Brian, who was talking about the Sd techs. of BJJ.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that TMAs are only good for kata, nothing else?

 

[Draven]

Well I've stated several times before how self-definition changes based on experience & thats true of your go to techniques based on training. I think that MMA is a sport and as such embraces many of the more modern science based sports training. TMAs I'm a bit more less trustful of as the whole concept of tradition often wieghs it down.

To give you an example of my personnal experience I have trained in both camps of ninjutsu x-kan & koga-ryu. I much more prefer the Koga Ryu systems (even if they are completely fraudulant) because they are more geared to progression & not tradition. Who cares what a dead samurai did 600 years ago if my problem is a gang-banger with a glock 17 & a need to prove himself?

I don't completely disconnect with the idea of tradition as an ideological guide post. I even find some concepts such as Makiwara, Various exercises & Kata applicatible to modern training methods. But, I also feel that understand the root of the art. I'm personnally against modern Shotokan karate because the Orgional Format including many grappling techniques similar to judo & Modern sport judo has left behind the Atemi-waza of the Kano's Kodokan Judo system. Yet both arts are considered traditional by a lineage they no longer ideologically represent.

So what I'm saying is simply that a) TMAs are often traditional in name only & b) that both have interesting elements to training which should be or can be adapted by all others.

 

[Sandwich]

Well Mixed Martial Artists do train TMA's. They just happen to train multiple ones and take the most effective aspects of each.

Most of the martial arts used in MMA are also sport martial arts. Some people scoff at them for this very reason, claiming that they're not great for self defense, only competition.

But my opinion is to the contrary. I think being competition martial arts is their biggest strength, and it makes them the best option for self-defense as well.

No amount of secret death strike training against air will ever prepare you for a fight as well as sparring against resisting opponents on a daily basis will (not to mention competing in tournaments against people who are trying really hard to hurt you).

Working on groin strikes or eye gouges in training is all fine and dandy. But in all honesty it doesn't take a secret kung-fu manual to know how to do these things.

Knowing what works is another important benefit of competition and sparring. MMA has been refined into a well oiled machine. People know what generally is effective and what isn't, yet there's still ways to develop, and new techniques that can be added.

And finally, being able to apply some technique in training is very different from applying that technique when your well-being depends upon it. If you can spar with opponents you can apply the techniques you've learned while they attempt to do the same. You learn how to use what you've learned while under pressure, and almost without thinking about it. You can find out what works, what doesn't, what needs to be adjusted, etc.