Cirdan
Senior Master
In short Olympic TKD in a way represents all the problems in the art. The deeper aspects have been largely lost in the rush to unify and popularize it and flashy useless stuff fills the void.
Olympic style sparring vs. traditional TKD: why all the fuss??
- Thread starter Daniel Sullivan
- Start date
The corruption to gain acceptance has over shadow the purity of an
Art.
I believe this has said it all.
Art.
I believe this has said it all.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #23
Yes, but does it have to be that way? Does a practitioner of taekwondo lose all that they have been taught by joining USAT and going for the gold? They don't have to. My grandmaster is the 1992 Korean National champion. But he teaches a very traditional class with two nights dedicated specifically to the Olympic style sparring. He expects the same calibre of behaviour in both classes and will make you do fifty knuckle pushups if you can't conduct yourself appropriately. Incidentally, he is a member of USAT and formerly a member of USTU. Neither this, nor his days in competition, nor the fact that he teaches the Olympic sport, have caused him to lose any of the deeper aspects of the art.
This is one of the reasons that I don't advocate separating the two. In fact, I think that severing the link between taekwondo as a martial art and taekwondo as a sport would be detrimental to the sport. The art would suffer nothing.
Daniel
Manny
Senior Master
For me the competitions of TKD (kyorugi) are apreciation GAMES where the fighter who makes more POINTS is the winner, sure there are times when a well executed KO ends the competition.
The TKD olimpic stile competition is a point game period. In this olimpic games as in the others ,score a point is subjetive, I saw a lot of good kicks that were no scored, I saw maches where one competitor scored ono or two points and then, protected these points to win a mach I don't like it, also I don't like the gold point (sudent death) and what really bothers me is that the judges must to say who's the winner when there are no points.
TKD competition is no MA fight, it's a sports oriented game.
What I really like about TKD is the martial side, how to punch, how to block,parry and dodge, how to avoid harm using the MA, how to kick efectively to disable (not to score a point) a BG.
In my dojan we use a lot of kicking techniques (sport oriented I have to confess) but almost CERO punching techniques, and very few self defense, that's why if I had a dojan I would teach more traditional TKD than sports oriented TKD, I will leave the sports TKD as a complement not the whole thing.
Manny
The TKD olimpic stile competition is a point game period. In this olimpic games as in the others ,score a point is subjetive, I saw a lot of good kicks that were no scored, I saw maches where one competitor scored ono or two points and then, protected these points to win a mach I don't like it, also I don't like the gold point (sudent death) and what really bothers me is that the judges must to say who's the winner when there are no points.
TKD competition is no MA fight, it's a sports oriented game.
What I really like about TKD is the martial side, how to punch, how to block,parry and dodge, how to avoid harm using the MA, how to kick efectively to disable (not to score a point) a BG.
In my dojan we use a lot of kicking techniques (sport oriented I have to confess) but almost CERO punching techniques, and very few self defense, that's why if I had a dojan I would teach more traditional TKD than sports oriented TKD, I will leave the sports TKD as a complement not the whole thing.
Manny
zDom
Senior Master
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The link is already weak enough that sport TKD HAS suffered.
I think the Cuban fighter indicident illustrates this: how far has his school fallen from the character-building aspects of TKD, the tenets of taekwondo, that not only is sportsmanship completely out of the picture, but he actually ASSAULTS an official?
And the art HAS suffered: nobody respects TKD anymore as a martial art. TKD should be THE "go-to" art for MMA stylists who want to learn how to kick. Instead, they laugh at TKD and hunt down a Muay Thai school.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #26
Absolutely right regarding the sport suffering due to a weak link between the art and the sport, which is why I disagree with Mango's wish to see the two separated entirely.
Regarding the martial art suffering, yes, it has. But is that due to inclusion in the olympics or the proliferation of TKD McDojos, where six year old kids and a lot of undeserving teens and adults wear blackbelts? Very, very few of these schools have anything like a competative team. Yet these are the most commonly encountered schools.
Not disagreeing with you; you're very right, particularly about the go-to for kicks part (Bruce Lee did just that when he approaced Jhoon Rhee). But I don't think that Olympic inclusion is the main problem.
I do think that Olympic inclusion is a result of the main problem, which is the lure of money. The lure of suburban soccormom's money is how you get six year old blackbelts (the ATA even has a division for them) and the lure of the sponsorship dollars and national prestige of the Olympics is why the WTF became one of the IOC's many wives.
Anyway, excelent post as always
Daniel
Your question how do we get a six year old Black Belt is an easy one it is paid for, from the parents who are so lame that they cannot see the wool being pulled over there very own eye's. TKD in general is a mass elusion of ones own dream, I get told everyday that I do not teach TKD because we hit to hard or we are trying to hurt people or the every popular one, why do we need to actually sweat at the other school we had pretty uniforms.
Man has the art and sport gone down the drain and I see no way of retrieving it back.
Man has the art and sport gone down the drain and I see no way of retrieving it back.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #28
Terry, I don't question how we get six year old black belts. Sadly, it is as you say: money. Which is the big problem I see with all of TKD's problems.
As for no way to retrieve it back, I do think that there is a way. The one thing that the public looks at is what is presented to them: sports. The public, as everyone has observed, sees the athletes in the Olympics. No doubt in my mind that the best traditional schools are also capable of putting out the best athletes. The best traditional schools already train hard, which to be a successful athlete, you need to do.
Unfortunately, the traditional schools steer clear of the Olympic sport by and large. But if more traditional schools were to involve themselves in the sport, then they'd be the ones with the best athletes. Then they'd be the ones that everyone would want to emulate.
Just a few thoughts.
Daniel
As for no way to retrieve it back, I do think that there is a way. The one thing that the public looks at is what is presented to them: sports. The public, as everyone has observed, sees the athletes in the Olympics. No doubt in my mind that the best traditional schools are also capable of putting out the best athletes. The best traditional schools already train hard, which to be a successful athlete, you need to do.
Unfortunately, the traditional schools steer clear of the Olympic sport by and large. But if more traditional schools were to involve themselves in the sport, then they'd be the ones with the best athletes. Then they'd be the ones that everyone would want to emulate.
Just a few thoughts.
Daniel
Sure if traditional schools had all the same tools and technology at their disposal that sport-centric "We build olympians" type places have. Things like access to the best sports medicine in the country, nutritionists, use of technology like dartfish, a staff of people that go around to all the competitons solely to scout and put together notebooks on fighters, and of course staff and athletes who devote themselves to training 2-3 time per day for 2-3 hours at a time so that they achieve a major accomplishment like making their kick just .001 second faster.
But once you do all of that, you have crossed the line from traditional to sport. Because once you are doing all of the above and so much more that I did not include above, there is no time in the day left for anything "traditional".
igillman
Purple Belt
The way that traditional TKD will survive today is the same way it survived under Japanese rule, by teaching it. The more people who teach it, the more people who learn it and the more people there will be to teach it down the road. The art is only lost when it is forgotten, as long as we do not let it be forgotten it will survive.
Olympic TKD will have its day, it will probably always be around in one form or another. Anyone who is convinced that they can get a black belt in 2 years or with no sweating can do to those schools, traditional TKD would not be for them anyway.
If a school cannot survive just doing traditional TKD then it is going to have to put on a class or two per week of "Olympic TKD". That is just the way the world works, sometimes you have to accept that something you don't like is here to stay (Windows Vista springs to mind). Encourage the people that go to each type of class to come along to the other type. The important thing is to keep teaching the traditional TKD.
Olympic TKD will have its day, it will probably always be around in one form or another. Anyone who is convinced that they can get a black belt in 2 years or with no sweating can do to those schools, traditional TKD would not be for them anyway.
If a school cannot survive just doing traditional TKD then it is going to have to put on a class or two per week of "Olympic TKD". That is just the way the world works, sometimes you have to accept that something you don't like is here to stay (Windows Vista springs to mind). Encourage the people that go to each type of class to come along to the other type. The important thing is to keep teaching the traditional TKD.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #31
Very, very few of the schools that use the Olympics to promote themselves have anything close to what you describe.
I'm not sure how you define a traditional school, but the typical suburban dojang isn't it. Traditional dojangs train you to fight for your life. By virtue of that, the fighters train to make their kicks as fast as humanly possible and their block, parry and evasion skills as high as humanly possible. After all, you'll fight a lot harder for your life than you will for belt or trophy.
If the school your daughter trains at has at its disposal all of what you say, then I'd imagine that it is a fantastic place for a blossoming athlete. From the vids you've posted of her, she looks quite good and well trained.
Obviously, for a traditional dojang to do what I described in my last post, they would have to have people there who can do what you described (notebooks on atheletes, nutritional advice etc.) but that does not preclude the traditional side. Beside, what better place to start than with a group of well trained martial artists?
Also, traditional schools fielded tournament champions for decades before the Olympics and those folks trained as hard as any modern athlete. Lastly, technology does not make better athletes. Very few modern boxers can equal Ali, either in ability or accomplishment. It isn't for lack of technology.
Daniel
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And that is why very few schools produce olympians. Schools can advertise themselves as olympic style schools but they will likely never produce an olympian.
There is a reason that people like Jean Lopez, Juan Moreno, Jimmy Kim, Patrice Remark, Jin Suh and a small number of others consistently end up with their players on the National Teams and why people travel from all over the country to train at these schools for a week or two during the summer or over winter break from school etc. It is because those people have those types of resources and consistently use those resources to develop the best olympic TKDists in the country.
To use Charlotte as an example. Her parents drive her roughly 60 miles each way to train at Jimmy Kims, 3-4 times a week. I am sure there are Olympic style schools much closer to her home than that. But if she went to those schools she would not have been on this years olympic team. Because their olympic sparring program probably consists of sparring evey friday from 6:00-6:45
And on those days that she is not training at Jimmy Kims she trains at home for hours on end. Also several time a year, you will find her traveling to Texas to train with the Lopezes and Colorado Springs to train at the Olympic Training Center. Her parents spend 10s of thousands of dollars a year on her training. She has no life outside of TKD. Everytime I speak with the parents and students that train with her at Jimmy Kims I ask what it is like to train with her and if seeing her success motivates the others to want the same thing. 9 out of 10 say they would not want Charlotte's life, because she has no life. She is 100% dedicated to being the best and nothing is allowed to interfere.
If you truly believe that Olympic TKDist do not sweat than I invite you to join us at our school someday. Of course we don't really have a school yet. But you can join us on the driveway we train on for now. My daughter loses about 3 pounds per 2 hour workout. That is what happens when you train on a driveway in full gear for 2 hours at a time in the San Fernando Valley where in August 100+ temps are common place.
I'll second that notion. Our competition team kids put in the MOST work out of anybody in our dojang. They also do best in the traditional curriculum as well as doing pretty well in the Olypic style sport aspect. We're not cranking out olympians (nore are we trying to), but for what it's worth...we work hard to train good martial artyists who are also good ocmpetitiors.
The two sides aren't mutually exclusive, nor should one side disrespect or belittle the other. THAT'S what makes TKD look bad in my opinion...all the factionist in-fighting, bickering and politics.
Just get on the mat and train.
Peace,
Erik
The two sides aren't mutually exclusive, nor should one side disrespect or belittle the other. THAT'S what makes TKD look bad in my opinion...all the factionist in-fighting, bickering and politics.
Just get on the mat and train.
Peace,
Erik
igillman
Purple Belt
I apologise, it came out wrong. I should have put a paragraph break between the two sentences or said something along the lines of...
Anyone who is interested in getting to the olympics OR wants a black belt within 2 years without sweating.
I know that whatever style you do, traditional, olympic, wtf, itf etc... you can train very hard for it if you want to.
My comment was about those people who do not want to train hard or who only want to do what they see on TV (hands down, Irish dancing type of sparring) without the rest of the moves (forms, board breaking etc...) getting in the way.
Anyone who is interested in getting to the olympics OR wants a black belt within 2 years without sweating.
I know that whatever style you do, traditional, olympic, wtf, itf etc... you can train very hard for it if you want to.
My comment was about those people who do not want to train hard or who only want to do what they see on TV (hands down, Irish dancing type of sparring) without the rest of the moves (forms, board breaking etc...) getting in the way.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #36
Nobody training for the actual olympics is any different, regardless of the sport/art. Charlotte, Nia, and the Lopezes are the exception rather than the rule. Very few people can afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars on either their own training or that of their children.
99.999% (guestimation based on observation, not hard numbers) of those who train in Olympic style TKD will ever make it to the olympics, or even train with the intent to do so. Most quit after blackbelt, as most of those schools don't train their students to be either top athletes or top martial artists. Most are just collecting the money. If they push their students to be top athletes, the parents will complain just as much as traditional schools that push the students to be top martial artists.
There are also competitors who do train in traditional schools and compete on the tournament circuit with no intent of making the Olympics, and I'm sure that these folks do have a life outside of TKD. (Perhaps we should refer to it as Sport TKD, just as olympic fencing is technically Sport fencing?)
Anyway, hard training will produce good fighters, whether training for sport, SD or art. The biggest issue that most of us in the MA community have with the bulk of schools billed as olympic is that the hard training is absent (That is also true of many non olympic schools). The other problem that many in the MA community have with them is that the students hold Kukkiwon rank, and the Kukkiwon is not an athletic body (the WTF is). For that reason, they are still judged by the MA community from an MA perspective, whereas boxers and fencers, for example, are not.
Daniel
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #37
200% agree with you, and I'd rep you twice if I could! You sum up my thoughts perfectly.
Just for the record, I do enjoy and train for sport TKD. Not exclusively, mind you, but I have a goal of competing later this year. My first taekwondo tournament in over twenty years will be in October. Just an interschool one, but hey, I've gotta start somewhere.
Daniel
To go off on my own little rant: It's not as simple as saying "it's not for me", at least in my case. As the olympic rules are created by the WTF, the WTF schools I've seen all use these rules. They do learn all the hand techniques, but then when it comes to sparring, they're something of a taboo. My WTF 1st dan friend (at another school) a while ago said something along the lines of "only newbies use hands". Why learn these techniques if you're never going to learn how to apply them in a dynamic environment?
Coming from an ITF background (now doing WTF), sparring without hands seems downright crazy. How on earth can it be as effective as it should be if you're throwing out at least half of your techniques when you're simulating a "combat" situation?? I've read comments about the probability of WTF practitioners keeping their guard down in a fight. My experience has suggested this is not the case, but the lack of hand experience shows up sorely if you chuck a fist at them above torso height.
This then contributes to the "TKD is worthless" argument and misconceptions.
There's some peeps on the board that are saying words to the effect of "My school isn't restricted by these rules" which is fantastic, but this seems to be the exception in the grand scheme of things.
SO
If we could split Sport TKD from MA TKD, then the current WTF schools could all use a "better" sparring model and then adapt to sport rules if and when required, rather than being crippled by said rules 100% of the time. I don't think Sport TKD should die (as grating as it is), but there needs to be a distinction between it and MA TKD, not just in definition but also in the common dojang.
Just my 0.02.
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Zendokan
Yellow Belt
I read the thread, and another problem with olympic TKD is the Olympic television viewer.
In those ten days fan of all types of sport watch every competition, not because they like them, but to see if their national athletes win medailles.
So people who normally only watch for example soccer and swimming will now also watch atletiques, sailing,cycling,ping pong...These type of viewers don't watch a Kyokushin Karate tournement, Muay Thai competitions or the UFC's.
And that's were there is a problem: "old school" TKD doesn't look "nice and sweet", so the WTF/Kukkiwon started slowly changing techniques years before TKD became Olympic to make it more appleasing to the overall viewer and getting it to become an Olympic sport.
(There's a lot of money to earn with the Olympic Games).
I try to describe my "old school" TKD as "Muay Savate" to let outsiders know that it is more effective and harder and has more techniques then the "Olympic Ballet". I could stand my ground against KKs and MTs without any problem and without modifying my techniques that I had learned. This is something Olympic TKDs can't say.
But nowadays when people think of TKD they think of Olympic TKD. General Choi would be so ashamed of the sellout. And when you don't play the rules of WTF/Kukkiwon they will destroy your club (I've seen it happen with my old club).
In those ten days fan of all types of sport watch every competition, not because they like them, but to see if their national athletes win medailles.
So people who normally only watch for example soccer and swimming will now also watch atletiques, sailing,cycling,ping pong...These type of viewers don't watch a Kyokushin Karate tournement, Muay Thai competitions or the UFC's.
And that's were there is a problem: "old school" TKD doesn't look "nice and sweet", so the WTF/Kukkiwon started slowly changing techniques years before TKD became Olympic to make it more appleasing to the overall viewer and getting it to become an Olympic sport.
(There's a lot of money to earn with the Olympic Games).
I try to describe my "old school" TKD as "Muay Savate" to let outsiders know that it is more effective and harder and has more techniques then the "Olympic Ballet". I could stand my ground against KKs and MTs without any problem and without modifying my techniques that I had learned. This is something Olympic TKDs can't say.
But nowadays when people think of TKD they think of Olympic TKD. General Choi would be so ashamed of the sellout. And when you don't play the rules of WTF/Kukkiwon they will destroy your club (I've seen it happen with my old club).
Sorry but the thing about people going out of there way to train because most cannot do it is ******** period. The only reason people go to them except Master Jimmy Kim is because they have the clout to help them get on the scene with USAT and they carry some wieght to who really gets the calls. I am sorry I have trained with all of them and so have my son but to me I am the best he has because I really care about him not about the money. Jean, Jaun and a few other go to them with talent and no cash and see if they will train you, forget it, go to USAT without some big name player. Last year my son at thirteen beat the kids up and down the matt and did not get a single point and this was at Colorado spring for the junior National team and I was told by Master Jimmy Kim you need to be in the limelight or just knock someone out so this year that is his goal just knock them out then no question about points and being the fan favorite. Sorry it is a kiss *** party that I do not play but will let my player speak with there feet instead.
