Combat vs art

[jobo]

Which is why I separate into 3, Combat, Sport, and Art, where Combat is for survival.

well your just joining head hunter in making up your own defintions , combat includes every thing from a bit of soft sparring to a fight to the death with knifes, and any training for any of those is combat training.

 

[skribs]

well your just joining head hunter in making up your own defintions , combat includes every thing from a bit of soft sparring to a fight to the death with knifes, and any training for any of those is combat training.

Well you're just joining us in making up your own definitions. Why is your definition better than ours?

 

[JR 137]

well your just joining head hunter in making up your own defintions , combat includes every thing from a bit of soft sparring to a fight to the death with knifes, and any training for any of those is combat training.

Wouldn’t combat also include M16 vs AK-47 with some grenades, bombs and missles thrown in too? Aka war?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it counts as combat!!!! The title of the thread is COMBAT V art, not street fighting v art, which is a completely different discussion and one you are slowly morphing in to

Combat include:

- battle field.
- police/security work.
- street fight.
- unfriendly challenge fight.
- friendly challenge fight.
- tournament.
- in-school sparring/wrestling.

 

[jobo]

Wouldn’t combat also include M16 vs AK-47 with some grenades, bombs and missles thrown in too? Aka war?

it certainly would, but out side the,scope of most dojos, so i stopped short

 

[jobo]

Well you're just joining us in making up your own definitions. Why is your definition better than ours?

because mine is from a dictionary and you just made yours up on the,spot, with little if any consideration

 

[jobo]

Combat include:

- battle field.
- police/security work.
- street fight.
- unfriendly challenge fight.
- friendly challenge fight.
- tournament.
- in-school sparring/wrestling.

yes very much so

 

[skribs]

because mine is from a dictionary and you just made yours up on the,spot, with little if any consideration

Ha. Hahahahahahahahahaha! It's a good thing you have a clown as an avatar, because you are funny!

1) There are a variety of definitions of "combat" in the dictionary. Some are more restrictive than mine (as in, only military combat). Others are less restrictive than yours, to include "combating ideas" as an example. So if we apply one of the dictionary definitions and say combat only applies to military skirmishes, then barely anyone on this board is using their martial arts training for combat.

2) Mine was just made up, on the spot, with little consideration? How do you know this?
This is something I have believed in for years, that the three aspects to Martial Arts are the Art (i.e. kata, individual techniques, flourishes with no practical application), the Sport (anything done for points, medals, ranks, or trophies) and the Combat (anything done for practical, real-world scenarios).

3) Would you prefer if I didn't use "combat" and instead said "self defense"?
I mean, it wouldn't be as accurate, because you might be using your martial arts to defend others, or as a police officer to apprehend a suspect, but let's say I replace combat with "self defense".
Now let's come back to my original argument I made before you started criticizing me for not using YOUR definition of combat. Now, the statement is that there are 3 aspects to martial arts: Art, Sport, and Self Defense. Do you disagree? Do you think that learning how to pin in wrestling, or learning tactics on head kicks in Taekwondo are similar to training Krav Maga for self defense? (Spoken as someone who has spent the majority of my martial arts training Taekwondo or Wrestling). Do you think that learning to do 540 kicks, triple jumping kicks, butterfly twists, and backflips has a place in a self defense course? (Again, spoken as someone who is working on those types of tricks).
There's a big difference in doing martial arts to entertain, in doing martial arts to win, and in doing martial arts to survive.

4) While we're on the subject of how you define words, sometimes you have words that exist in the dictionary, but you have to re-define them in order to discuss a specific topic. This comes up in board games, scientific studies, and laws. They don't usually go against the dictionary definition (which mine did not), but they do specify what specifically a term means in relation to the study.
For example, a study might determine how many people "liked" a movie or "disliked" a movie based on IMDB ratings, where "like" is determined by a 7 or more rating, and "dislike" is determined by a 6 or less rating. Now, if you look up "like" in the dictionary, it won't say "has a rating of 7 or better". However, that is what it is in the study.

To apply it back to here, if I say that, for the sake of discussion, "combat" specifically applies to practical, real-world training, i.e. training for the street, training for self defense, training to protect your family, training for the job of being a police officer, etc., then that doesn't mean I'm "wrong", even though I don't meet the exact definition of what Webster says "combat" means. As you can tell based on my previous point, I don't think "self defense" is a good word for this set of training, because it ignores other aspects of combat that are also unrelated to sport training.

Knowing this, you must find it ludicrous to assume my definition was "just made up on the spot, with little if any consideration".

 

[Headhunter]

Ha. Hahahahahahahahahaha! It's a good thing you have a clown as an avatar, because you are funny!

1) There are a variety of definitions of "combat" in the dictionary. Some are more restrictive than mine (as in, only military combat). Others are less restrictive than yours, to include "combating ideas" as an example. So if we apply one of the dictionary definitions and say combat only applies to military skirmishes, then barely anyone on this board is using their martial arts training for combat.

2) Mine was just made up, on the spot, with little consideration? How do you know this?
This is something I have believed in for years, that the three aspects to Martial Arts are the Art (i.e. kata, individual techniques, flourishes with no practical application), the Sport (anything done for points, medals, ranks, or trophies) and the Combat (anything done for practical, real-world scenarios).

3) Would you prefer if I didn't use "combat" and instead said "self defense"?
I mean, it wouldn't be as accurate, because you might be using your martial arts to defend others, or as a police officer to apprehend a suspect, but let's say I replace combat with "self defense".
Now let's come back to my original argument I made before you started criticizing me for not using YOUR definition of combat. Now, the statement is that there are 3 aspects to martial arts: Art, Sport, and Self Defense. Do you disagree? Do you think that learning how to pin in wrestling, or learning tactics on head kicks in Taekwondo are similar to training Krav Maga for self defense? (Spoken as someone who has spent the majority of my martial arts training Taekwondo or Wrestling). Do you think that learning to do 540 kicks, triple jumping kicks, butterfly twists, and backflips has a place in a self defense course? (Again, spoken as someone who is working on those types of tricks).
There's a big difference in doing martial arts to entertain, in doing martial arts to win, and in doing martial arts to survive.

4) While we're on the subject of how you define words, sometimes you have words that exist in the dictionary, but you have to re-define them in order to discuss a specific topic. This comes up in board games, scientific studies, and laws. They don't usually go against the dictionary definition (which mine did not), but they do specify what specifically a term means in relation to the study.
For example, a study might determine how many people "liked" a movie or "disliked" a movie based on IMDB ratings, where "like" is determined by a 7 or more rating, and "dislike" is determined by a 6 or less rating. Now, if you look up "like" in the dictionary, it won't say "has a rating of 7 or better". However, that is what it is in the study.

To apply it back to here, if I say that, for the sake of discussion, "combat" specifically applies to practical, real-world training, i.e. training for the street, training for self defense, training to protect your family, training for the job of being a police officer, etc., then that doesn't mean I'm "wrong", even though I don't meet the exact definition of what Webster says "combat" means. As you can tell based on my previous point, I don't think "self defense" is a good word for this set of training, because it ignores other aspects of combat that are also unrelated to sport training.

Knowing this, you must find it ludicrous to assume my definition was "just made up on the spot, with little if any consideration".

Just do what I do now and ignore him don't give him what he wants which is an argument

 

[jobo]

Just do what I do now and ignore him don't give him what he wants which is an argument

no its not!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1) There are a variety of definitions of "combat" in the dictionary.

Agree! Even in street fight, there are:

- fight for yourself.
- fight for your love one.
- fight for a stranger. When a guy attacks a girl on the street, Are you just standing there and watch?.

People always said that you should avoid fighting. You can avoid fighting for yourself. You just can't avoid fighting to save your love one or stranger. When people punch you, you can block that punch and not punch back. When people punches at your wife, you have to punch that guy.

 

[jobo]

Ha. Hahahahahahahahahaha! It's a good thing you have a clown as an avatar, because you are funny!

1) There are a variety of definitions of "combat" in the dictionary. Some are more restrictive than mine (as in, only military combat). Others are less restrictive than yours, to include "combating ideas" as an example. So if we apply one of the dictionary definitions and say combat only applies to military skirmishes, then barely anyone on this board is using their martial arts training for combat.

2) Mine was just made up, on the spot, with little consideration? How do you know this?
This is something I have believed in for years, that the three aspects to Martial Arts are the Art (i.e. kata, individual techniques, flourishes with no practical application), the Sport (anything done for points, medals, ranks, or trophies) and the Combat (anything done for practical, real-world scenarios).

3) Would you prefer if I didn't use "combat" and instead said "self defense"?
I mean, it wouldn't be as accurate, because you might be using your martial arts to defend others, or as a police officer to apprehend a suspect, but let's say I replace combat with "self defense".
Now let's come back to my original argument I made before you started criticizing me for not using YOUR definition of combat. Now, the statement is that there are 3 aspects to martial arts: Art, Sport, and Self Defense. Do you disagree? Do you think that learning how to pin in wrestling, or learning tactics on head kicks in Taekwondo are similar to training Krav Maga for self defense? (Spoken as someone who has spent the majority of my martial arts training Taekwondo or Wrestling). Do you think that learning to do 540 kicks, triple jumping kicks, butterfly twists, and backflips has a place in a self defense course? (Again, spoken as someone who is working on those types of tricks).
There's a big difference in doing martial arts to entertain, in doing martial arts to win, and in doing martial arts to survive.

4) While we're on the subject of how you define words, sometimes you have words that exist in the dictionary, but you have to re-define them in order to discuss a specific topic. This comes up in board games, scientific studies, and laws. They don't usually go against the dictionary definition (which mine did not), but they do specify what specifically a term means in relation to the study.
For example, a study might determine how many people "liked" a movie or "disliked" a movie based on IMDB ratings, where "like" is determined by a 7 or more rating, and "dislike" is determined by a 6 or less rating. Now, if you look up "like" in the dictionary, it won't say "has a rating of 7 or better". However, that is what it is in the study.

To apply it back to here, if I say that, for the sake of discussion, "combat" specifically applies to practical, real-world training, i.e. training for the street, training for self defense, training to protect your family, training for the job of being a police officer, etc., then that doesn't mean I'm "wrong", even though I don't meet the exact definition of what Webster says "combat" means. As you can tell based on my previous point, I don't think "self defense" is a good word for this set of training, because it ignores other aspects of combat that are also unrelated to sport training.

Knowing this, you must find it ludicrous to assume my definition was "just made up on the spot, with little if any consideration".

knowing that you spent some time considering and still came to this defintion, doesn't really help you much. Your basic premise is flawed, so every thing after that is flawed.

there AREthree elements of being a maist. Those being....
training for combat, fitness, forms etc, practising combat, drills, light sparing, AND combat, heavy sparring , ring work, actual fighting. If you are not doing all three, you are not really a maist, no what every you like to call yourself.like playing chop sticks doesn't mean you are a pianists or cooking bacon and eggs doesn't make you a chef. People who just do forms and no combat are like some one who can juggle a football calling them self's a soccerplayer

now i accept that there are differences between different combat situations, but not to the extent that you suggest above. They all have someone trying to hurt you and you trying not to get hurt, whilst hurting them. To that extent they are all the same

what will work in sparring will work in the ring, what works in the ring will work on the street. The hardest I've ever been hit was a tkd kick, that i was braces for and holding a pad, it knocked me off my feet, that kick would have knocked 90% of the population over, and would be equally effective anywhere

 

[_Simon_]

Hehe anyways..

So just something I've been thinking about and while I've always been a combat practitioner competing in combat sports and spending more time training in competitive styles I do also have a passion for the art side of it. Things like forms I think the can be beautiful to watch done right (though some people's forms have made me want to bleach my eyes) also things like spinning kicks and acrobatic stuff. I know that stuffs pretty much ineffective but I still enjoy seeing the beauty of it. Sometimes I like to just flow through some flashy looking moves effective or not. I also love seeing a whole class performing forms as one when they're perfectly synchronised. To me there's a certain beauty to that.

One of my favourite martial art actors right now is Scott Adkins. He's a very talented guy and the kicks and moves he does in his movies mainly undisputed and the 2 ninja movies are truly a joy to watch despite them being unrealistic.

I think a lot of people just focus so much on pure fighting that they miss a lot of the artistic side of martial arts that can at least in my opinion be just as exciting as sparring or competing.

Just my 2 cents worth

Awesome post, and one that I can really relate to. There's something truly mesmerising about watching a kata performed by someone who just gets it. It's a thing of such beauty, and I'm not ashamed to say that I've teared up many times from watching certain katas done at tournament. You can see it in the look in the person's eyes, there's a real depth to their intention, and a real meaning behind every move. The energy communicates volumes, and I think it's indicative of their level of consciousness, and what it means to them.

It's true when you become obsessed with 'self-preservation' it seems it's usually driven from a place of great fear. And learning self-defence doesn't really quench that fear, but can definitely make you more paranoid.. I always see people bashing styles as they're not 'street-credible'. Who said it had to be? No system is going to be the best, and nor does that really matter. If you enjoy it and are drawn to it, why would you change it because someone else said it was not 'optimal'? If you want straight up, no fluff real self defence, go do a self defence course and real situational training. Martial arts take time to learn, and there is far more depth in them than just protecting a body. To me anyways.

Always seems to come back to why you're doing martial arts, what's actually driving you. If you're driven from an outlook of fear, you're going to want to learn to protect yourself and continue to reinforce your belief that the world as a threat. If you can connect with deeper spiritual elements and yearn for a deeper understanding of life you'll be attracted to the art side of things. Of course there are many other reasons.

This is something I've come back around to in the last few years. If I'm honest with myself, there are things I enjoy studying about aiki arts that I don't think are a good idea for training self-defense. But I REALLY like them. Some of them look cool. Some, when done right, feel fantastic when doing them. Some also feel fantastic and surprising when receiving them, while others feel overwhelming and overpowering. I have better options for defense, but really like some of these things. And I'm growing to like the feel of flowing through a form. I've been considering replacing a couple of the forms I introduced with one new one, and I'll probably build that around a more flowing progression.

Sometimes, we just like what we like, and it doesn't have to be rationally useful. That's what art and hobbies are about, most of the time.

Yeah absolutely, some moves can feel incredible, and it's as though the power is felt directly. Some moves are more flowery, but yeah it doesn't detract what can be learned from them. Mawashi uke looks quite flashy, but when it flows right it feels awesome, and can actually be drilled to be quite effective. And some moves just don't seem practical at all, and just feel incredible to do! I often do those haha and even still them to get better. I feel a lot of techniques are not necessarily direct anyway, but prepare and condition the body in such a way that gives you more control in movement in general. Thus making the body as a whole more effective rather than just isolating techniques and getting better at those. I suspect kata can fulfil a similar function, you may not move into someone in a deep zenkutsu dachi, but to be able to move around in that stance develops a lot of leg strength, balance and control, and also allows you to get used to a certain stability from certain angles. So it transfers into fighting ability that way (indirect transference).

That kind of goes along with my feelings. My favorite thing is when I’ve finally gotten down a new form or similar standardized stuff. That first time when it just clicks and goes smoothly is what it’s all about to me.

I really like nailing a kata on the rare occasion that I compete. Except for once, I’ve always placed top 3. No one else’s score really matters though. If I nailed it, I don’t care what the judges thought nor do I care if someone else truly did better than I did. I took 3rd out of about 25 people last time (2 years ago). The guy who took first was genuinely on another level. He was a former pro dancer, and it showed. The second place guy was appreciably better than me too. Even if I was last or first, I honestly did that kata better than I’ve ever done it before. Where I placed was completely irrelevant when all was said and done.

Ah that's an awesome perspective to have . Last year in my break off training I actually entered a few tournaments. In all my training I'd never really been interested in tournaments at all in the slightest, then in my year off I was really drawn to it, especially kata, and it was such a great experience to walk out there in the middle of the ring and perform it with all I have. It has a surreal quality to it hey!

Absolutely. I couldn't care less about fighting anymore. I never really cared much about the self defence side it's good to know it but I'm not obsessed with it. I just enjoy training. I've never been in a street fight in my life and have no plans on starting now

I'm 100% the same mate. I actually couldn't give a solid single reason why I train... There's just something to it I can't explain, but I'm immensely drawn to it. I know there's a lot of things I could say I enjoy about it, but it's of a deeper reason I train. Definitely am exploring the 'feel' aspect of it all rather than just an outcome (enjoying process vs outcome)

 

[skribs]

Jobo, you reminded me of the 4th thing I used to use as a martial arts category: fitness. Thanks.

knowing that you spent some time considering and still came to this defintion, doesn't really help you much. Your basic premise is flawed, so every thing after that is flawed.

there AREthree elements of being a maist. Those being....
training for combat, fitness, forms etc, practising combat, drills, light sparing, AND combat, heavy sparring , ring work, actual fighting. If you are not doing all three, you are not really a maist, no what every you like to call yourself.like playing chop sticks doesn't mean you are a pianists or cooking bacon and eggs doesn't make you a chef. People who just do forms and no combat are like some one who can juggle a football calling them self's a soccerplayer

Um...you said I was wrong. Then you agreed there are 3 things. Then you listed a lot more than three things. Then you said you must do all three things in order to be a martial artist. I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

Would you say then that martial arts like Krav Maga that are purely combat-focused and don't have forms or competitions aren't real martial arts because they don't have a point system?

now i accept that there are differences between different combat situations, but not to the extent that you suggest above. They all have someone trying to hurt you and you trying not to get hurt, whilst hurting them. To that extent they are all the same

The situations I listed included defending others, which is a big consideration. There's also multiple opponents, something that Wrestling or BJJ training doesn't cover nearly as well as other arts that prefer to stay standing up. You're going to have to use different tactics and techniques if someone is trying to stab you. There's a big difference if they block your punch than if they slice your wrist while you're punching them.

what will work in sparring will work in the ring, what works in the ring will work on the street. The hardest I've ever been hit was a tkd kick, that i was braces for and holding a pad, it knocked me off my feet, that kick would have knocked 90% of the population over, and would be equally effective anywhere[/QUOTE]

Taekwondo teaches great kicks, but for Taekwondo sparring you emphasize speed over power, and you're not allowed to punch to the face or use grappling techniques. So someone who exclusively trains sport Taekwondo will be conditioned to get points over the knockout, and will not be prepared to be tackled to the ground or to be punched repeatedly in the face.

Would you give a bunch of paintball champions who have never had any military training a bunch of real rifles and send them off into the jungle to fight drug cartels? Probably not. It's the same way with sports martial arts. For example, a wrestler might be able to take someone down and control them so their opponent can't punch back. But what if the other guy has friends, and while you're wrapping him up like a pretzel, they're kicking you in the liver? What if he has a knife, and when you're clinched up to try and take him down, he just stabs you repeatedly in the gut?

Let's use the age-old question of "who would win in a match, a Taekwondo fighter or a Muay Thai fighter" (or insert other arts here). The general rule of thumb is that all else being equal, the MT fighter will win in the Muay Thai ring, and the TKD fighter will win on the Taekwondo mat, because that is what they've trained for. The MT fighter is going to have to worry about which techniques he can use, and probably isn't as well versed in head kicks or kick combinations as the TKD fighter. Similarly, the TKD fighter is going to spend the whole MT match trying not to get punched or elbowed. The same applies to the street. If you're not trained for a situation (like a Taekwondoist not being trained for what to do after being tackled to the ground) then how is your training effective for the street?

 

[jobo]

Jobo, you reminded me of the 4th thing I used to use as a martial arts category: fitness. Thanks.



Um...you said I was wrong. Then you agreed there are 3 things. Then you listed a lot more than three things. Then you said you must do all three things in order to be a martial artist. I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

Would you say then that martial arts like Krav Maga that are purely combat-focused and don't have forms or competitions aren't real martial arts because they don't have a point system?



The situations I listed included defending others, which is a big consideration. There's also multiple opponents, something that Wrestling or BJJ training doesn't cover nearly as well as other arts that prefer to stay standing up. You're going to have to use different tactics and techniques if someone is trying to stab you. There's a big difference if they block your punch than if they slice your wrist while you're punching them.

what will work in sparring will work in the ring, what works in the ring will work on the street. The hardest I've ever been hit was a tkd kick, that i was braces for and holding a pad, it knocked me off my feet, that kick would have knocked 90% of the population over, and would be equally effective anywhere

Taekwondo teaches great kicks, but for Taekwondo sparring you emphasize speed over power, and you're not allowed to punch to the face or use grappling techniques. So someone who exclusively trains sport Taekwondo will be conditioned to get points over the knockout, and will not be prepared to be tackled to the ground or to be punched repeatedly in the face.

Would you give a bunch of paintball champions who have never had any military training a bunch of real rifles and send them off into the jungle to fight drug cartels? Probably not. It's the same way with sports martial arts. For example, a wrestler might be able to take someone down and control them so their opponent can't punch back. But what if the other guy has friends, and while you're wrapping him up like a pretzel, they're kicking you in the liver? What if he has a knife, and when you're clinched up to try and take him down, he just stabs you repeatedly in the gut?

Let's use the age-old question of "who would win in a match, a Taekwondo fighter or a Muay Thai fighter" (or insert other arts here). The general rule of thumb is that all else being equal, the MT fighter will win in the Muay Thai ring, and the TKD fighter will win on the Taekwondo mat, because that is what they've trained for. The MT fighter is going to have to worry about which techniques he can use, and probably isn't as well versed in head kicks or kick combinations as the TKD fighter. Similarly, the TKD fighter is going to spend the whole MT match trying not to get punched or elbowed. The same applies to the street. If you're not trained for a situation (like a Taekwondoist not being trained for what to do after being tackled to the ground) then how is your training effective for the street?[/QUOTE]
why do you write such long posts

three things, training for combat, practising combat and combat. The others were illustrations of each.

contrary to the often voiced view on here, street fights are generally easier than fighting a skilled maist, if you can hold your own in a ring, you will walk threw most people with out much effort, even you kick happy tkds.
except if you are fighting multiple attackers, in which case you have. Most probably lost already, unless they are very small or very drunk