Different Approaches to the Lap-Sau Drill
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
Here is a perfect example of "sport specific" training that is directly applicable to a real situation. The "concept" or "principle" is to distract the opponent to set up the intended blow. If you can actually damage his eyes in the process, so much the better! But the concept is tied to an actual technique, and the technique is trained just as you would expect to use it in a real situation. Nothing "abstract" about this.
Well, then! Let's see that video again. If I remember correctly it wasn't actually a free-sparring video against non-Wing Chun guys. But I'm happy to be proven wrong! Seeing at least ONE video like that out of the myriad of PB Chi Sau videos posted would be a great start! But one video out of dozens and dozens doesn't really disprove the idea that WSLVT guys are afraid to post sparring videos. And when I said the answer was apparently "yes" I was referring to your idea that WSLVT people don't post videos or "tutorials" because they are afraid someone is going to "steal" something from them. You know....the "we don't cast pearls before swine" line of reasoning. That is essentially...."yes, we are afraid to post that because we don't want you to know." Which is not too convincing. Still seems more like "yes, we are afraid to post sparring videos because we don't actually do any better than the rest of you Wing Chun guys."
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Just beware of boxing. There are many styles of it, and most people that mimic boxers do not think of the glove impact.
The gloves allow you to deliver more power in your punches without fear of injury. This puts a higher requirement on power generation even at expense of accurracy (Not saying you do not master art of hitting, just that when you hit there is not much difference between soft tissue or bone with those gloves on)
The gloves weigh enough to unbalance your muscles. Becoming efficient with boxing gloves may cause you to get a bad habit of lifting the weight that is usually on your hands when fighting without gloves.
The defense system of boxers mostly does not work in a self defense scenario, not that it matters when you are one of the best punchers there are. Most boxers are probably somewhat aware of this but they do not train self defense anyways. The guard has a different movement and distance because you expect to cover and receive punches on your guard. Without gloves you would be suprised if a punch landed straight on your guard (it actually happens quite often still but you know what I mean at least).
The gloves allow you to deliver more power in your punches without fear of injury. This puts a higher requirement on power generation even at expense of accurracy (Not saying you do not master art of hitting, just that when you hit there is not much difference between soft tissue or bone with those gloves on)
The gloves weigh enough to unbalance your muscles. Becoming efficient with boxing gloves may cause you to get a bad habit of lifting the weight that is usually on your hands when fighting without gloves.
The defense system of boxers mostly does not work in a self defense scenario, not that it matters when you are one of the best punchers there are. Most boxers are probably somewhat aware of this but they do not train self defense anyways. The guard has a different movement and distance because you expect to cover and receive punches on your guard. Without gloves you would be suprised if a punch landed straight on your guard (it actually happens quite often still but you know what I mean at least).
dudewingchun
Blue Belt
Silly reasons to not box. Most street fight videos where someone has a decent idea of boxing they usually win.
Just beware of boxing. There are many styles of it, and most people that mimic boxers do not think of the glove impact.
----I've done a lot of training both with and without gloves. I'm well aware of the differences.
The gloves allow you to deliver more power in your punches without fear of injury. This puts a higher requirement on power generation even at expense of accurracy (Not saying you do not master art of hitting, just that when you hit there is not much difference between soft tissue or bone with those gloves on)
----Yeah, if you only trained with gloves on you don't have to worry as much about the angle of impact and how it is going to affect your hand and wrist. But training back and forth between having the gloves and being empty-hands takes care of that. Its one of the differences between "Wing Chun Boxing" and just straight sport boxing. Sport boxing does little training without the gloves and hand wraps on.
The gloves weigh enough to unbalance your muscles. Becoming efficient with boxing gloves may cause you to get a bad habit of lifting the weight that is usually on your hands when fighting without gloves.
----That one makes no sense. If anything, training with the weight of the gloves, and then taking the gloves off just makes your punching faster and more responsive.
The defense system of boxers mostly does not work in a self defense scenario, not that it matters when you are one of the best punchers there are. Most boxers are probably somewhat aware of this but they do not train self defense anyways.
----And that's a good example of what Wing Chun can bring to Boxing! Check out my thread on "Wing Chun Boxing."
----I've done a lot of training both with and without gloves. I'm well aware of the differences.
The gloves allow you to deliver more power in your punches without fear of injury. This puts a higher requirement on power generation even at expense of accurracy (Not saying you do not master art of hitting, just that when you hit there is not much difference between soft tissue or bone with those gloves on)
----Yeah, if you only trained with gloves on you don't have to worry as much about the angle of impact and how it is going to affect your hand and wrist. But training back and forth between having the gloves and being empty-hands takes care of that. Its one of the differences between "Wing Chun Boxing" and just straight sport boxing. Sport boxing does little training without the gloves and hand wraps on.
The gloves weigh enough to unbalance your muscles. Becoming efficient with boxing gloves may cause you to get a bad habit of lifting the weight that is usually on your hands when fighting without gloves.
----That one makes no sense. If anything, training with the weight of the gloves, and then taking the gloves off just makes your punching faster and more responsive.
The defense system of boxers mostly does not work in a self defense scenario, not that it matters when you are one of the best punchers there are. Most boxers are probably somewhat aware of this but they do not train self defense anyways.
----And that's a good example of what Wing Chun can bring to Boxing! Check out my thread on "Wing Chun Boxing."
Well, then! Let's see that video again. If I remember correctly it wasn't actually a free-sparring video against non-Wing Chun guys. But I'm happy to be proven wrong! Seeing at least ONE video like that out of the myriad of PB Chi Sau videos posted would be a great start! But one video out of dozens and dozens doesn't really disprove the idea that WSLVT guys are afraid to post sparring videos. And when I said the answer was apparently "yes" I was referring to your idea that WSLVT people don't post videos or "tutorials" because they are afraid someone is going to "steal" something from them. You know....the "we don't cast pearls before swine" line of reasoning. That is essentially...."yes, we are afraid to post that because we don't want you to know." Which is not too convincing. Still seems more like "yes, we are afraid to post sparring videos because we don't actually do any better than the rest of you Wing Chun guys."
---Had trouble finding it on the forum. So I went to Sean's youtube page. I don't remember whether this is the same clip or not, but it is the only one that shows any real sparring against a non-Wing Chun guy. And it is a good clip! But notice how often the exchange ended with a sweep or takedown. Notice how often Sean's guys use a boxing high cover. I'd say Sean breaks from "typical" WSLVT to some extent. Which is good! Everyone should check out the rest of Sean's clips on his youtube page. Good stuff!
---But again, this is one sparring clip out of dozens and dozens of WSLVT (and particularly PB) clips on the web. One clip does not counter the strong impression that WSLVT guys have an adversion to posting sparring clips.
Whatever helps you sleep.
---Another "cop out" pointless comment.
They do incorporate grappling, because I believe he intends to have them compete in the future.
There is no Western Boxing, though.
I'm sure you mean aversion, but it's not an impression.
You were told flat out that most groups do not make much public and why.
You can dislike the policy or the reason for it, but you can't disagree with it, because it's not your VT.
There's nothing to cop out of...
You were told the reason for the policy. If you choose to believe something else to make yourself feel better about your WC, then... whatever helps you sleep.
wingchun100
Senior Master
I have trained in something that looks close to the WSL clip. Leung Sheung lineage is similar, except the "lop sao" does not actually grab. All you do is clear the line. There are also several ways to change sides. And that is about all I have to add here for now.
^^^^This is an excellent question. The WT drill as practiced is not for fighting, but to train a specific attribute -- namely the yielding, "springy" bong sau. The WT bong does not explode forward as a ballistic deflection like what you see in some lineages. Instead it is conceived of as a bent spring that receives and redirects strong incoming forces.
So, if your man-sau or front punch meets a stronger incoming force, instead of struggling to overcome the incoming force, you allow that force press your arm back into tan-sau or bong-sau, depending on the direction of the force received. Arm pressing forward but compressed backwards = "bent spring".
Basically, I think of the ballistic, deflecting bong as a sort of "yang bong", and the yielding bong, in which you compress and turn with the incoming force, as more of a "yin bong". Both types require forward pressure and accomplish a deflection. They just do it differently. And both are used differently in a fight than in Lat-sau practice. The WT bong or "yin bong" is used against more committed punches and, in actual application, may be followed directly by a punch without using the rear hand to lap or fook.
See Emin's examples below, first just posed at around 1:30, then showing how it can be used better with flow "like water" and then used poorly, momentarily freezing "like ice" at 2:25-2:50.
Personal note: I have found both types of bong effective, with the ballistic "yang" bong working well at longer range and against less committed punches where this bong's impact can not only deflect, but jolt your opponent and disrupt his center. For me, the yielding bong works better either against more committed punches or at closer range where you can use it to roll with the punches and turn your opponent off center. I use the term "yielding", but flowing might be a better description, since it still uses good forward pressure and, although I may yield and turn with it, it will equally turn my opponent aside. This would be a bit more like what you see in parts of the Alan Orr clip.
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PiedmontChun
Purple Belt
I'm late to the party, and am choosing to skim past much of the contention back and forth, but my take is:
I've done a bong fook da drill essentially identical to the Alex Richter video posted. It was taught very early on, even prior to any poon sau, and it is definitely not teaching a 1:1 application so much as training general responses. Mainly to naturally form the bong shape in response to when particular pressure is applied (a center punch with low elbow force). Then there are several specific ways to initiate a switch from one side to the other, it becomes more dynamic, then several attacks that can be incorporated, then stepping. The drill goes from the simplee single repetition of movement to a very unscripted and dynamic training platform, however it is generally always one person "leading" another, feeding them strikes that the student dissolves, while never losing stick.
I have seen versions by many that look just like the WSL video from Geezer's OP, but to be honest I never really understood it. A backfist just seems like an odd movement to train a response off of, and since you are pushed fairly forcefully into bong, it doesn't seem like it would train that response at all the same way I'm accustomed to. Given that they way I was taught is not a 1:1 application at all, and that there is much more than meets the eye....... I just have to assume there is purpose there that I don't get on other's versions.
I've done a bong fook da drill essentially identical to the Alex Richter video posted. It was taught very early on, even prior to any poon sau, and it is definitely not teaching a 1:1 application so much as training general responses. Mainly to naturally form the bong shape in response to when particular pressure is applied (a center punch with low elbow force). Then there are several specific ways to initiate a switch from one side to the other, it becomes more dynamic, then several attacks that can be incorporated, then stepping. The drill goes from the simplee single repetition of movement to a very unscripted and dynamic training platform, however it is generally always one person "leading" another, feeding them strikes that the student dissolves, while never losing stick.
I have seen versions by many that look just like the WSL video from Geezer's OP, but to be honest I never really understood it. A backfist just seems like an odd movement to train a response off of, and since you are pushed fairly forcefully into bong, it doesn't seem like it would train that response at all the same way I'm accustomed to. Given that they way I was taught is not a 1:1 application at all, and that there is much more than meets the eye....... I just have to assume there is purpose there that I don't get on other's versions.
You must be talking about those other versions, because WSL doesn't backfist or push on the arms.
Same.
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
Back fisting? UGH ugh ugh
