Different Approaches to the Lap-Sau Drill
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
wow hahaha haven't heard that one in a long timeIt's called "watch your footwork!"
iain_meyers
White Belt
I'm confused. I have been reading this discussion and LFJ seems to be saying that the drills in wing chun develop attributes for fighting, but are not fighting. I think this is pretty clear?
Why then do you keep on expecting to see applications of techniques in the wing chun drilling? It makes no sense?
Did you watch the Matt Thornton video? If a drill develops attributes but is not for fighting, then that really counts as conditioning and not "sport-specific" development, to use Thornton's terms. If what you are practicing does not apply directly to a real encounter, then that isn't a very efficient way to train. Boxers don't train that way. Kickboxers don't train that way. MMA fighters don't train that way. If you can see no "applications of techniques" in your drilling....in other words your drilling doesn't resemble what is going to actually be happening in a real exchange, then you have to wonder how efficient your training is. You should "fight the way you train and train the way you fight." Doesn't that make sense?
Involved, as in difficult for you, as an uninformed onlooker to comprehend. So?
----Now you are just being argumentative again!
For much of the same reason you don't see tutorials either.
----Oh yeah! The whole....we don't "cast pearls before swine" attitude. Like you are protecting some kind of precious knowledge. That is an archaic and pretty pointless attitude in today's world. What if someone saw something that made sense to them in a video or "tutorial" about WSLVT and was able to incorporate it into their Ip Man Wing Chun for the better and improved what they do? Wouldn't that be a good thing for Ip Man WIng Chun as a whole? Why hold back information that may help others? In the old days groups protected their methods from being known by others because they had to worry about someone showing up on their doorstep and using it against them. But no one is going to come to your school and challenge you to mortal combat in this day and age! If you feel that Ip Man Wing Chun as a whole is "substandard" and wasn't taught or learned properly, why aren't you here trying to help people improve their Ip Man Wing Chun? Why are you not sharing freely and trying to help rather than just lurking in the forum looking for things you can criticize and argue about? When was the last time you started your own thread to share something positive and useful about your WSLVT training with the rest of us????
But, you don't even know what the end product is supposed to be...
----Well, I assumed the end product is supposed to be a fighting method that works well against people doing something other than Wing Chun. Is that wrong?? You aren't training to be an effective fighter? I guess that would explain a lot!
I don't know if you're genuinely retarded or what, but you have been told repeatedly, for years, that is not the point.
---Oh, I'm not the retarded one here! I've pointed out for awhile that I have yet to see how those skills show up in sparring. So I don't care what you think the "point" is. I care about effectiveness and efficiency.
It's like you have some mental block that won't allow you to see it as anything other than a fight.
---And you seem to have a mental block that won't allow you to admit that you really don't have anything that backs up all the claims you make about WSLVT. Sure, you just turn around and say...."I don't care whether you believe me or not"......yet you will argue about something at great length when someone doesn't believe you!!! Go figure!!! It certainly seems to me that you care what people believe!
How do you know WC works fine at short-range if no one ever seems to get there?
----What you are talking about? No one has ever said a Wing Chun guy can't get to close range. In fact I showed multiple videos to illustrate the point that most Wing Chun guys just step right into close range and start going at it, with no long-range game or even a real strategy. Haven't you even been paying attention?
----Now you are just being argumentative again!
For much of the same reason you don't see tutorials either.
----Oh yeah! The whole....we don't "cast pearls before swine" attitude. Like you are protecting some kind of precious knowledge. That is an archaic and pretty pointless attitude in today's world. What if someone saw something that made sense to them in a video or "tutorial" about WSLVT and was able to incorporate it into their Ip Man Wing Chun for the better and improved what they do? Wouldn't that be a good thing for Ip Man WIng Chun as a whole? Why hold back information that may help others? In the old days groups protected their methods from being known by others because they had to worry about someone showing up on their doorstep and using it against them. But no one is going to come to your school and challenge you to mortal combat in this day and age! If you feel that Ip Man Wing Chun as a whole is "substandard" and wasn't taught or learned properly, why aren't you here trying to help people improve their Ip Man Wing Chun? Why are you not sharing freely and trying to help rather than just lurking in the forum looking for things you can criticize and argue about? When was the last time you started your own thread to share something positive and useful about your WSLVT training with the rest of us????
But, you don't even know what the end product is supposed to be...
----Well, I assumed the end product is supposed to be a fighting method that works well against people doing something other than Wing Chun. Is that wrong?? You aren't training to be an effective fighter? I guess that would explain a lot!
I don't know if you're genuinely retarded or what, but you have been told repeatedly, for years, that is not the point.
---Oh, I'm not the retarded one here! I've pointed out for awhile that I have yet to see how those skills show up in sparring. So I don't care what you think the "point" is. I care about effectiveness and efficiency.
It's like you have some mental block that won't allow you to see it as anything other than a fight.
---And you seem to have a mental block that won't allow you to admit that you really don't have anything that backs up all the claims you make about WSLVT. Sure, you just turn around and say...."I don't care whether you believe me or not"......yet you will argue about something at great length when someone doesn't believe you!!! Go figure!!! It certainly seems to me that you care what people believe!
How do you know WC works fine at short-range if no one ever seems to get there?
----What you are talking about? No one has ever said a Wing Chun guy can't get to close range. In fact I showed multiple videos to illustrate the point that most Wing Chun guys just step right into close range and start going at it, with no long-range game or even a real strategy. Haven't you even been paying attention?
The guy's talking about technique-based martial arts training.
Fighting behaviors developed or corrected by the VT method are "sport-specific" and do apply directly to fighting.
They just aren't 1:1 techniques, but fighting habits that enable an instinctive uninterrupted onslaught.
You simply fail to comprehend how this works because you have never experienced such an approach to fighting.
There are a ton of charlatans in the WC world who pass off bits as the whole.
Dropping them crumbs is doing no one a favor, especially not the VT system.
Best to show just enough that might pique the interest of serious people who will come and learn properly.
You can disagree and handle your WC however you choose.
And it does that, but you are confused about exactly how and what that looks like.
You are not justified in judging the efficiency or efficacy of the training method if you neither understand the method, nor have seen the end product.
You are not being agnostic as you should, but concluding negatively from an uninformed yet clearly biased opinion.
You should care what the point is, because you don't even know what to be looking for in order to be able to judge.
Doors are open around the world. I don't know what you're afraid of.
You've been on a years-long mission to debunk WSLVT, but don't dare step foot in a school.
And you said they never do well against other styles unless they abandon WC.
So, how do you know it works, close-range, against other styles, if you've never seen anyone do it?
wckf92
Master of Arts
What about when boxers hit the speed bag? Heavy bag? Timing/double end bag? Skip rope? Jog/road work?
I.E. They repeatedly 'chain punch' a speed bag with elbows high and flared out a bit...yet that doesn't show up when they box.
If memory serves....you are / were military...so let me provide another example:
When you learn to shoot, a soldier spends copious amounts of time on attribute drills that lend very very well to situations they may face under duress...when they "fight"
The guy's talking about technique-based martial arts training.
---You don't use techniques in WSLVT? See, I don't believe that your abstract "non-application" based training is as different as you think it is.
Fighting behaviors developed or corrected by the VT method are "sport-specific" and do apply directly to fighting.
----You always cop out with this ill-defined term "fighting behaviors." Either you are developing the ability to use techniques in a real exchange or you aren't. If the techniques you are using in developmental drills are not the same techniques you are going to be using in a real exchange, then you are at least one step removed from reality and not as "sport-specific" as you could be. That is less efficient.
They just aren't 1:1 techniques, but fighting habits that enable an instinctive uninterrupted onslaught.
---An "instinctive uninterrupted onslaught" of what?
You simply fail to comprehend how this works because you have never experienced such an approach to fighting.
---I never said it couldn't work. I've been saying it is not as efficient and direct as you would have us believe.
There are a ton of charlatans in the WC world who pass off bits as the whole. Dropping them crumbs is doing no one a favor, especially not the VT system.
---And that's the attitude I'm talking about! That attitude isn't doing anyone any favors.
And it does that, but you are confused about exactly how and what that looks like.
----Really? Shouldn't it "look like" someone beating the crap out of a non-Wing Chun opponent? I don't think that is very confusing! I just haven't seen it yet! Are you guys afraid to post video of WSLVT people sparring non-Wing Chun people???
You are not justified in judging the efficiency or efficacy of the training method if you neither understand the method, nor have seen the end product.
----Well, that's the problem isn't it? You make all kinds of claims that you want everyone to just accept without ever showing any evidence that a successful "end product" even exists. I don't have to understand all the details of the training method. I just have to see the results. And the results should be pretty easy to understand.....WSLVT guys consistently dominating non-Wing Chun guys in sparring bouts. Nothing confusing about that! Are you guys afraid to post video of WSLVT people sparring non-Wing Chun people?
You are not being agnostic as you should, but concluding negatively from an uninformed yet clearly biased opinion.
----No, you are wrong. I happen to admire WSL and WSLVT and think it is a great system. You just always manage to give it a bad rap in the way you are so smug and self-assured in the way you argue and discuss it here. You make everything else out to be substandard and wrong rather than just freely sharing what you know from WSLVT. I don't have a negative opinion of WSLVT. I have a negative opinion of the way you talk about it.
Doors are open around the world. I don't know what you're afraid of. You've been on a years-long mission to debunk WSLVT, but don't dare step foot in a school.
----There are no schools near me that would pass your "acceptability" standard. After all, we all know that not just any WSL student will do! It has to be someone that got the "secret sauce"!!!
And you said they never do well against other styles unless they abandon WC.
---I said "many" or "often", not "never."
---You don't use techniques in WSLVT? See, I don't believe that your abstract "non-application" based training is as different as you think it is.
Fighting behaviors developed or corrected by the VT method are "sport-specific" and do apply directly to fighting.
----You always cop out with this ill-defined term "fighting behaviors." Either you are developing the ability to use techniques in a real exchange or you aren't. If the techniques you are using in developmental drills are not the same techniques you are going to be using in a real exchange, then you are at least one step removed from reality and not as "sport-specific" as you could be. That is less efficient.
They just aren't 1:1 techniques, but fighting habits that enable an instinctive uninterrupted onslaught.
---An "instinctive uninterrupted onslaught" of what?
You simply fail to comprehend how this works because you have never experienced such an approach to fighting.
---I never said it couldn't work. I've been saying it is not as efficient and direct as you would have us believe.
There are a ton of charlatans in the WC world who pass off bits as the whole. Dropping them crumbs is doing no one a favor, especially not the VT system.
---And that's the attitude I'm talking about! That attitude isn't doing anyone any favors.
And it does that, but you are confused about exactly how and what that looks like.
----Really? Shouldn't it "look like" someone beating the crap out of a non-Wing Chun opponent? I don't think that is very confusing! I just haven't seen it yet! Are you guys afraid to post video of WSLVT people sparring non-Wing Chun people???
You are not justified in judging the efficiency or efficacy of the training method if you neither understand the method, nor have seen the end product.
----Well, that's the problem isn't it? You make all kinds of claims that you want everyone to just accept without ever showing any evidence that a successful "end product" even exists. I don't have to understand all the details of the training method. I just have to see the results. And the results should be pretty easy to understand.....WSLVT guys consistently dominating non-Wing Chun guys in sparring bouts. Nothing confusing about that! Are you guys afraid to post video of WSLVT people sparring non-Wing Chun people?
You are not being agnostic as you should, but concluding negatively from an uninformed yet clearly biased opinion.
----No, you are wrong. I happen to admire WSL and WSLVT and think it is a great system. You just always manage to give it a bad rap in the way you are so smug and self-assured in the way you argue and discuss it here. You make everything else out to be substandard and wrong rather than just freely sharing what you know from WSLVT. I don't have a negative opinion of WSLVT. I have a negative opinion of the way you talk about it.
Doors are open around the world. I don't know what you're afraid of. You've been on a years-long mission to debunk WSLVT, but don't dare step foot in a school.
----There are no schools near me that would pass your "acceptability" standard. After all, we all know that not just any WSL student will do! It has to be someone that got the "secret sauce"!!!
And you said they never do well against other styles unless they abandon WC.
---I said "many" or "often", not "never."
What about when boxers hit the speed bag? Heavy bag? Timing/double end bag? Skip rope? Jog/road work?
---That is conditioning, not "sport-specific" training. Watch the Matt Thornton video that Steve posted.
When you learn to shoot, a soldier spends copious amounts of time on attribute drills that lend very very well to situations they may face under duress...when they "fight"
---Absolutely! And when we go to the range they don't have us shooting from a nice bench rest in perfect conditions! They have us down in the trenches shooting from kneeling, prone, and other "real-world" positions. The targets are not nice stationary targets that are within easy distance to hit. They are "pop up" targets that appear at various distances that mimic a battlefield as closely as possible. It would make no sense to practice shooting under absolutely perfect conditions and expect that to translate well over to battlefield conditions. So why would you expect drilling in perfect conditions against a partner doing Wing Chun technique to translate over well to fighting a resistant partner not doing Wing Chun technique?? All ring fighters work against the type of opponent they expect to face in the ring. They will even bring in people from outside that can simulate their scheduled opponent's fighting style. So why do so many Wing Chun guys only train and drill against another guy doing Wing Chun and think this applies so directly to a real exchange? A non-Wing Chun opponent is simply not going to react like a Wing Chun student, he isn't going to be throwing nice straight punches or keep his hands nicely on the centerline.
---That is conditioning, not "sport-specific" training. Watch the Matt Thornton video that Steve posted.
When you learn to shoot, a soldier spends copious amounts of time on attribute drills that lend very very well to situations they may face under duress...when they "fight"
---Absolutely! And when we go to the range they don't have us shooting from a nice bench rest in perfect conditions! They have us down in the trenches shooting from kneeling, prone, and other "real-world" positions. The targets are not nice stationary targets that are within easy distance to hit. They are "pop up" targets that appear at various distances that mimic a battlefield as closely as possible. It would make no sense to practice shooting under absolutely perfect conditions and expect that to translate well over to battlefield conditions. So why would you expect drilling in perfect conditions against a partner doing Wing Chun technique to translate over well to fighting a resistant partner not doing Wing Chun technique?? All ring fighters work against the type of opponent they expect to face in the ring. They will even bring in people from outside that can simulate their scheduled opponent's fighting style. So why do so many Wing Chun guys only train and drill against another guy doing Wing Chun and think this applies so directly to a real exchange? A non-Wing Chun opponent is simply not going to react like a Wing Chun student, he isn't going to be throwing nice straight punches or keep his hands nicely on the centerline.
Based on what information? You have no knowledge of the training.
Principles of movement, strategy and tactics for engaging with an opponent.
True of technique-based approaches to fighting with 1:1 applications, 2-3 hit combos, etc..
Offense.
Based on 0 knowledge of the method whatsoever.
Cry about it?
You keep asking to see bong-laap cycles in fighting. So, yes, you are very confused.
Yes, it is. Which is why you should either go check it out, or just stop.
And until you do, the correct position is agnostic, not to make uninformed assertions of inefficiency and inefficacy.
You've just spent this whole thread telling me WSLVT training methods are inefficient and unlikely to help in fighting.
You have traveled to Hong Kong at least once. So, it is within your means to travel if really interested.
If you're not interested or can't be bothered to make a trip, then you have nothing to say on the topic of WSLVT.
So, where is the "some times" then?
Comparable to pre-sparring drills and free sparring stages of training.
These are different stages. It has been explained to you, but you apparently won't get it without hands-on training.
Can't speak for "so many WC guys", but I train against all manner of fighter that I can.
Sean has even posted videos showing sparring with MMA guys invited into his school for his guys to train against, and you praised it for still "looking like VT".
But, for some reason you always "forget" this when you get back on your anti-WSLVT horse.
Nobody Important
2nd Black Belt
Concept in and of itself is useless without a technique to exploit it. All technique contains concept, whether identified by the user or not, as part of an overarching strategy or tactic. It's a symbiotic relationship. To parse it out & suggest that the parts (concept or technique) can be functional independent of one another is to completely misunderstand the relationship and role of each. The two are inseperable, they are yin and yang.
Absolutely! You don't stop a strike or hit someone in the face with a principle or concept. Yet LFJ keeps squirming around that point and just accuses ME of not understanding!
Somehow his abstract training method teaches one to fight without teaching any specific fighting techniques that can be applied. Just how does that work? I have listed out several times; punch, palm, kick, faak, wu, paak, jat, bong...
These are simple tools we use in fighting, either to strike or open the way to strike.
But, the method is not technique-based, meaning with 1:1 applications (when he does this, I'll do that), or combos (I'll hit him with a faak, palm, and punch to set up my kick), and it's not a friendly sparring or point-fighting mentality with an exchange of these techniques in a ring strategy.
This technique-based approach is fine, so long as your techniques are realistic. Most MAs are of this type.
But, instead of this, VT develops, as stated, a certain behavior for fighting with a few simple tools; principles of movement for engaging with an opponent.
It's a fundamentally different approach. Therefore, it also requires a different training method to develop necessary attributes and habits, and correct errors in order to perform effectively in this way.
Doing isolated 1:1 applications or preset combos is actually detrimental to the habits we are trying to form. That's why we drill things in a controlled yet spontaneous environment where we can pause and highlight errors without getting caught in a technique-based mindset.
Then of course, when ready, we incrementally return to pre-sparring and free sparring/fighting stages for further pressure testing against whatever kind of attacker. Here we discover if our errors have been corrected, and discover further errors that need correcting. We then return to the training process to deal with this again. In this way we improve in the most efficient and effective manner for VT fighting.
There is nothing wonderfully magical about it, but if one has no knowledge of this type of fighting or training method, without firsthand experience nothing but inaccurate conclusions are likely to be drawn, as has been happening throughout this thread.
These are simple tools we use in fighting, either to strike or open the way to strike.
But, the method is not technique-based, meaning with 1:1 applications (when he does this, I'll do that), or combos (I'll hit him with a faak, palm, and punch to set up my kick), and it's not a friendly sparring or point-fighting mentality with an exchange of these techniques in a ring strategy.
This technique-based approach is fine, so long as your techniques are realistic. Most MAs are of this type.
But, instead of this, VT develops, as stated, a certain behavior for fighting with a few simple tools; principles of movement for engaging with an opponent.
It's a fundamentally different approach. Therefore, it also requires a different training method to develop necessary attributes and habits, and correct errors in order to perform effectively in this way.
Doing isolated 1:1 applications or preset combos is actually detrimental to the habits we are trying to form. That's why we drill things in a controlled yet spontaneous environment where we can pause and highlight errors without getting caught in a technique-based mindset.
Then of course, when ready, we incrementally return to pre-sparring and free sparring/fighting stages for further pressure testing against whatever kind of attacker. Here we discover if our errors have been corrected, and discover further errors that need correcting. We then return to the training process to deal with this again. In this way we improve in the most efficient and effective manner for VT fighting.
There is nothing wonderfully magical about it, but if one has no knowledge of this type of fighting or training method, without firsthand experience nothing but inaccurate conclusions are likely to be drawn, as has been happening throughout this thread.
Now THAT is a good post! To the point, not argumentative, and not insulting. All you need now is video that shows the results of that training and its effectiveness in dealing with a non-Wing Chun opponent. Otherwise, what you are saying is just as theoretical as what anyone else here could claim about what their own lineage is capable of. Nothing wrong that! But don't carry on as if it isn't true.
