DTE Combat Wing Chun Lap Sau drill fighting application

[KPM]

I thought you'd got past all this "if it doesn't look like wing Chun then it isn't " argument?

----I said "to an extent."

Why does Wing Chun tend to look like kickboxing when used in the ring/cage? Well for one thing the art contains all the component parts (and more) that kickboxing DOES contain. Long bridge, short bridge kicks,punches,knees, clinch fighting elbows etc etc. These are the high percentage techniques that work in many stand up systems.

---Wing Chun has its own structure and mechanics that are different from kickboxing. Most Wing Chun guys I know don't do wide loopy punches, high round kicks to the head, or wrestling clinches and takedowns....unless they've added that stuff in. When one completely abandons the distinct mechanics of Wing Chun that they train on a regular basis, can it still be said he is doing Wing Chun? Check out this video. Note that it is captioned as "Wing Chun, no MMA" implying this figter is all Wing Chun. Skip to the 2:30 mark so you don't see the corner guys and tell me if you can figure out which fighter is "Wing Chun no MMA."

As soon as the pressure is on the "kickboxing" almost invariably kicks in.

---I've seen that as well. But again, if you are going to resort to kickboxing when the pressure is on, why not just train kickboxing? Wouldn't that be more efficient? Why is it that a fighter feels like he has to resort to kickboxing to win? Isn't that a pretty damning statement about "traditional" Wing Chun?

 

[SaulGoodman]

I don't think there's any point arguing with you KPM, I've put my views (as have others) as succinctly as I could on this matter and am happy that what I do in application is wing Chun regardless of wether people think it ain't. If when you spar hard/fight and you look like picture perfect ip man 3 then I'm very happy for you. And btw I didn't say we resort to "pure" kickboxing (if there is such a thing) mechanics under pressure, I suggested the core striking mechanics like punching/kicking/clinch/knees tend to be used. Rooting, correct skeletal alignment, forward pressure, center line control,correct elbow vectors,square body, facing, spatial awareness,timing,sensitivity,gate awareness are many of the "side effects" of wing Chun training that should be evident when A practitioner is under pressure. These attributes don't have to look a certain way to be in existence. If we're gonna split hairs what exactly should a wing Chun knee strike look like? Or a wing Chun single collar tie or a wing Chun rising elbow?

 

[Tez3]

. Kickboxers look like kickboxers when they fight AND when they train. BJJ guys look like BJJ guys when they fight AND when they train. Why should Wing Chun be any different?

Just a comment here about this bit, I do kick boxing and BJJ. Kick boxing can actually look like karate and vice versa. BJJ can look like Judo and wrestling. Take way Gis etc and have them practice in gym clothes and you wouldn't really be sure what they are doing.

 

[KPM]

If when you spar hard/fight and you look like picture perfect ip man 3 then I'm very happy for you.

---I already stated I wouldn't expect it to look like the forms and drills, just to stick with basic Wing Chun mechanics. If someone isn't even doing that, can be said to be Wing Chun? And if someone isn't even going to be using their basic essential core mechanics when they fight....why are they wasting their time training them? Being up on the toes, swinging from the shoulders, bobbing and weaving, bending forward at the waist....those are all things I was taught NOT to do in every Wing Chun system I have studied.

And btw I didn't say we resort to "pure" kickboxing (if there is such a thing) mechanics under pressure, I suggested the core striking mechanics like punching/kicking/clinch/knees tend to be used.

---And that is why I initially said that "I agree to an extent." But be honest now.....when watching the video I posted above, do you see any "core" Wing Chun? That video labeled as "Wing Chun no MMA" is the kind of thing I'm referring to.

---Now I see nothing at all wrong with a Wing Chun guy cross-training in MMA and then competing. But then to say that his skills and success in the ring are based entirely on his Wing Chun training would be a stretch...don't you think?

 

[KPM]

Just a comment here about this bit, I do kick boxing and BJJ. Kick boxing can actually look like karate and vice versa. BJJ can look like Judo and wrestling. Take way Gis etc and have them practice in gym clothes and you wouldn't really be sure what they are doing.

If the wrestler stuck to wrestling and the BJJ guy stuck to BJJ, I think it would quickly become apparent who was who! American kickboxing came from Karate, so no big surprise that they occasionally look alike! But I've never seen a Muay Thai guy do anything that looked like Karate. You see a Muay Thai guy training and then you see him fight and its obvious he is fighting exactly the way he trains.

 

[KPM]

Kickboxing with the "side effects" of Wing Chun training....isn't that essentially JKD??!!! We should all just train JKD and we would have the best of both worlds!

 

[Tez3]

If the wrestler stuck to wrestling and the BJJ guy stuck to BJJ, I think it would quickly become apparent who was who! American kickboxing came from Karate, so no big surprise that they occasionally look alike! But I've never seen a Muay Thai guy do anything that looked like Karate. You see a Muay Thai guy training and then you see him fight and its obvious he is fighting exactly the way he trains.

What's Muay Thai got to do with it? I specifically talked about BJJ and karate, I did not mention Muay Thai at all. 'American' kickboxing? Do you think the rest of the world hasn't developed kickboxing and that it more than looks 'occasionally' alike? I also said put wrestling people and BJJ people in gym clothes watch them grapple without rules and you will find they are more alike than not.

 

[SaulGoodman]

If when you spar hard/fight and you look like picture perfect ip man 3 then I'm very happy for you.

---I already stated I wouldn't expect it to look like the forms and drills, just to stick with basic Wing Chun mechanics. If someone isn't even doing that, can be said to be Wing Chun? And if someone isn't even going to be using their basic essential core mechanics when they fight....why are they wasting their time training them? Being up on the toes, swinging from the shoulders, bobbing and weaving, bending forward at the waist....those are all things I was taught NOT to do in every Wing Chun system I have studied.

And btw I didn't say we resort to "pure" kickboxing (if there is such a thing) mechanics under pressure, I suggested the core striking mechanics like punching/kicking/clinch/knees tend to be used.

---And that is why I initially said that "I agree to an extent." But be honest now.....when watching the video I posted above, do you see any "core" Wing Chun? That video labeled as "Wing Chun no MMA" is the kind of thing I'm referring to.

---Now I see nothing at all wrong with a Wing Chun guy cross-training in MMA and then competing. But then to say that his skills and success in the ring are based entirely on his Wing Chun training would be a stretch...don't you think?

No I don't. Of course in MMA when the fight goes to the ground that's when wing Chun ends and ground skills come into play. Regarding the clip sure I can see certain elements in the guys performance which are evident as Wc attributes. No I'm not going to exhaustively detail frame by frame what I see, all that will happen is that you will vehemently argue that I'm wrong, rinse/repeat.

Bobbing and weaving/head evasion isn't part of what you do? Fair enough, I consider slipping punches a high level skill and it's certainly part of my armory.

You seem very straight jacketed in your opinion of how wing Chun should be expressed, pity as I thought you were more enlightened.

Ok, so we've given plenty of opinions on what we feel applied Wc might look like. What are you expecting to see?

Straight back, chin out, classical man Sao/wu Sao guard?

Lots of angle stepping and chain punching?

Lots of tan da,lap da,pak da combos?

Stamping kicks coupled with tan da etc?

 

[Tez3]

Of course in MMA when the fight goes to the ground that's when wing Chun ends and ground skills come into play.

Yep I do MMA as well ( and karate) so I feel I can give an opinion here lol.

MMA is what it says it is, it's mixed up together, lots of style's techniques and moves all used in the same fight. people keep looking at MMA, telling us that so and so style doesn't work in the cage, well the truth is no one still works in the cage and if you are looking for techniques so you can keep pointing out which style they come then you are going to be disappointed. What MMA people do is take techniques from everything they think can work for them and meld it into their 'fighting style', no one uses one style for stand up and one for ground work, we will quite unashamedly steal all and every technique we can from anywhere, we even tinker with them to make them work better for us.
There are plenty of techniques ine very style that are worth using, a move from WC can lead into a move from karate which can move into BJJ, it's endless and fast.

 

[KPM]

What's Muay Thai got to do with it? I specifically talked about BJJ and karate, I did not mention Muay Thai at all. 'American' kickboxing? Do you think the rest of the world hasn't developed kickboxing and that it more than looks 'occasionally' alike? I also said put wrestling people and BJJ people in gym clothes watch them grapple without rules and you will find they are more alike than not.

Muay Thai is simply another example of an art that fights the way it trains. My original statement was that a boxer is obviously boxing both when he trains and when he fights. A BJJ guy is obviously doing BJJ both when he trains and when he fights. I simply added Muay Thai to that list. A Muay Thai guy is obviously doing Muay Thai both when he trains and when he fights. And if you have trouble picking out the various BJJ specific positions, joint-locks and chokes as compared to wrestling pins and controls....well, what more can I say?

 

[KPM]

No I'm not going to exhaustively detail frame by frame what I see, all that will happen is that you will vehemently argue that I'm wrong, rinse/repeat.

---So you can honestly watch that clip above without knowing beforehand which guy is the Wing Chun guy and still pick him out? Really? Is his opponent doing any less of the "certain elements" that you attribute to Wing Chun?


Bobbing and weaving/head evasion isn't part of what you do? Fair enough, I consider slipping punches a high level skill and it's certainly part of my armory.

---If you've added them that's fine. But then that isn't "classical" Wing Chun. Its Wing Chun going the way of MMA. Which is Ok too!


You seem very straight jacketed in your opinion of how wing Chun should be expressed, pity as I thought you were more enlightened.

---No, I see nothing wrong with Wing Chun evolving and changing. But I also think one should be up-front and honest about it.


Ok, so we've given plenty of opinions on what we feel applied Wc might look like. What are you expecting to see?

---Its not what I'm expecting to see, its what I'm expecting NOT to see! Which I already listed!

---My viewpoint: Sparring should not be seen as a thing unto itself. It should be seen as a platform for training, just like Chi Sau is a platform for training. Everyone realizes that good technique goes to sh!t under pressure. Sparring is the opportunity to put a student under pressure and see what goes to sh!t. Then he knows what he needs to go back and work on. If you saw someone bobbing and weaving, breaking center, giving up their structure, etc in Chi Sau....wouldn't you point these things out as something to work on? Something that needs improvement? Why is it any different when it comes to sparring? Why does everyone get all offended if someone points out how they are losing their Wing Chun structure and technique when sparring? Are you training Wing Chun? Or are you training to be a good sparer? Why do we have such a high standard for Wing Chun in our forms and drills and such a low standard for Wing Chun when it comes to sparring? Any good martial art should strive to train the way it fights and fight the way it trains. Sparring is a great environment to bring all those hours of training to the fight. But if you start being content with resorting to sloppy kickboxing, then you are wasting all those hours of training. Now, one might very well find adjustments and modifications to their Wing Chun that are more successful in sparring. That's great and how things progress and evolve! But if you aren't then going back and putting those modifications into your training, again you are wasting time and not training efficiently.

---So again, are you training Wing Chun? Or are you training to be good at sparring? (general question for everyone)

 

[KPM]

Yep I do MMA as well ( and karate) so I feel I can give an opinion here lol.

MMA is what it says it is, it's mixed up together, lots of style's techniques and moves all used in the same fight. people keep looking at MMA, telling us that so and so style doesn't work in the cage, well the truth is no one still works in the cage and if you are looking for techniques so you can keep pointing out which style they come then you are going to be disappointed. What MMA people do is take techniques from everything they think can work for them and meld it into their 'fighting style', no one uses one style for stand up and one for ground work, we will quite unashamedly steal all and every technique we can from anywhere, we even tinker with them to make them work better for us.
There are plenty of techniques ine very style that are worth using, a move from WC can lead into a move from karate which can move into BJJ, it's endless and fast.

Yes! I have no problem with that! So tell me Tez....when you watch that video I posted, can you pick out the Wing Chun guy without knowing beforehand which guy he is? When you see a guy that has obviously been training MMA exactly as you describe above, but then claims its all Wing Chun....you don't see a problem there?

 

[Tez3]

Yes! I have no problem with that! So tell me Tez....when you watch that video I posted, can you pick out the Wing Chun guy without knowing beforehand which guy he is? When you see a guy that has obviously been training MMA exactly as you describe above, but then claims its all Wing Chun....you don't see a problem there?

To be honest I'm not going to comment on the WC because I will only comment on something I know about ie MMA, Karate and BJJ. For me to express any opinion on WC would be silly. I think you are wrong about BJJ and I would thank you not to condescend about my knowledge of BJJ and wrestling, I would remind you there is only so many ways a body can move or be moved. I would also suggest your knowledge of other styles isn't as wide as you would like to think it is. Oh and in the right hands good technique works very well under pressure.

 

[KPM]

To be honest I'm not going to comment on the WC because I will only comment on something I know about ie MMA, Karate and BJJ. For me to express any opinion on WC would be silly. I think you are wrong about BJJ and I would thank you not to condescend about my knowledge of BJJ and wrestling, I would remind you there is only so many ways a body can move or be moved. I would also suggest your knowledge of other styles isn't as wide as you would like to think it is. Oh and in the right hands good technique works very well under pressure.

I am not trying to condescend to anyone. I am only trying to appeal to common sense. The typical wrestler is not going to use the guard position, he isn't going to be doing arm-locks and chokes. Those kind of things should clearly denote the BJJ guy, shouldn't they? Unless the wrestler has been doing some cross-training?????

And you don't have to be any kind of expert to watch that video and say whether you see any Wing Chun or not. You are allowed an opinion! And again, as a MMA stylist yourself....watching someone clearly doing pretty typical MMA and labeling it as "Wing Chun no MMA"....that doesn't bother you?

 

[Tez3]

The typical wrestler is not going to use the guard position, he isn't going to be doing arm-locks and chokes.

I'm not sure what to you is a typical wrestler, I suspect you mean the wrestling they do in American schools and colleges whereas I know of many more ( at least nine) including one which very much uses arm locks and another that uses chokes.

that doesn't bother you?

Not in the least. The question is ... does it work...the proof is in the pudding. If it works he can call it what he likes, if it doesn't he's an idiot.

 

[Jake104]

kPM
Not all bjj or jjj ground fighting uses the guard like the Gracie's.. I think bjj has really transcended from just pulling guard.. It's not the ideal position on the ground and now a days when people try and pull guard from standing it doesn't always work so well. I'm not a 'bjj guy' so I'm no expert on the subject. I'am just going off what our guys do and what I've been shown.. Ours guys complete in both bjj and just recently a couple Judo tournaments. Our guys actually did real well in a Judo tournament. I believe Sensei Mark Connally choked out a guy and won at the Judo tournament two weeks ago.. He teaches Yudansha jujitsu at DTE.. So not sure what your point is grappling and striking arts can look similar in competition.

 

[KPM]

I'm not sure what to you is a typical wrestler, I suspect you mean the wrestling they do in American schools and colleges whereas I know of many more ( at least nine) including one which very much uses arm locks and another that uses chokes..

---The "typical wrestler" is one that has gone into MMA from collegiate sport competition, where they don't use things like the guard, arm-locks and chokes. Now if you are talking about catch-wrestling...that's a different animal. But most wrestling guys I've heard of going into MMA are not doing it from that kind of background.


Not in the least. The question is ... does it work...the proof is in the pudding. If it works he can call it what he likes, if it doesn't he's an idiot.

---Ok, that's fine. But personally, I prefer that people are honest and up-front about what they are doing.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BJJ can look like Judo and wrestling. Take way Gis etc and have them practice in gym clothes and you wouldn't really be sure what they are doing.

If the wrestler stuck to wrestling and the BJJ guy stuck to BJJ, I think it would quickly become apparent who was who!

The typical wrestler is not going to use the guard position, he isn't going to be doing arm-locks and chokes. Those kind of things should clearly denote the BJJ guy, shouldn't they?

Many BJJ practitioners (myself included) don't view BJJ and wrestling as fundamentally different. From my perspective BJJ, Judo, Sombo, and Wrestling (in its various forms) are all just aspects of the same art. They may be optimized for different competitive rule sets and they carry some different cultural baggage, but take away the rules and they all blend together in a real fight.

 

[Tez3]

The "typical wrestler" is one that has gone into MMA from collegiate sport competition, where they don't use things like the guard, arm-locks and chokes. Now if you are talking about catch-wrestling...that's a different animal. But most wrestling guys I've heard of going into MMA are not doing it from that kind of background.

No, that's a cultural thing, Only the USA has the collegiate wrestling system, the rest of the world has various types of wrestling, it's very big thing in eastern Europe and northern Asian countries like Mongolia so the wrestlers you know may come from that system but the rest of them don't. No MMA fighter I know personally or from the UK has come from that system, they've mostly come from judo, catch and BJJ. I even know one who did Cornish wrestling, others who are French come from their systems.

---Ok, that's fine. But personally, I prefer that people are honest and up-front about what they are doing.

and what if they are being honest? I don't assume that because they may be mistaken or in error they are not being honest.

They may be optimized for different competitive rule sets

that's why I said put them in gym clothes and not use rules.

 

[Jake104]

Since this is my thread I'm going vent and ramble on a bit..

I started WC in 1993. I came into WC with plenty of street fighting experience. I've been jumped a few times and lots of fights blah blah blah.. I grew up in Little Saigon Westminster Ca. and met my Vietnamese wife there back in 1990. So yeah, I got in a few fights..

If back then there was a YouTube or the internet and I watched all these WC videos and seen all this arguing on forums, I wouldn't of trained in Wing Chun. I would of thought of it as a joke..

My first Sifu told me the first day "fighting is fighting".. ( I was thinking of taking JKD at Danny Inosatos fighting academy in Fountian Valley Ca at that time).. He also said "WC same as other arts, is only a vehicle to help get you to the same place"." Becoming a good fighter"...So that's what really kept me at his WC class and into WC all these years.

It wasn't until the Internet era I seen how many different lineages and how everybody argues about who has the real deal... It really blows my mind. Because for me the proof has always had to be in the pudding. Otherwise I see no point?

Now fast forward, I have hooked up with a group that is even better. Same philosophy but I actually get to train with other styles within our same group. That alone has done wonders for my WC and has opened my eyes.. But that's not enough. My teacher really is the one responsible, because like I said, he sharpens my blade. He teaches me how to really make my Wing Chun work. Which in reality is his WC that he's instilling in me.. My Wing Chun is really DTE WC now. Guess what? It works and I really don't care how anyone labels it.