Different Approaches to the Lap-Sau Drill

[geezer]

KPM -- how do you feel modern Western boxing complements WC/VT better than say historical Western pugilism from the bare knuckle era 0f the 18th and 19th Centuries. I know that some would maintain that early pugilism is not an inferior method, but in fact a better method when applied in a bare-knuckle rule-set.

Also, my instincts tell me that it is not the technique of WV/VT fighting that are so lacking, as the training methods. Too little emphasis on resistance training and sparring, vs. too much emphasis on drilling techniques by themselves. I'll re-post Thornton's clip of the I-Method to show what we are missing (see around 4:35):

It seems like this is what Alan Orr is really stressing, far more than any of the hooey pushed by Hendrick, etc.

 

[LFJ]

the Wing Chun people that do well in sparring seem to be abandoning good Wing Chun biomechanics to do so. But don't believe, research it yourself on youtube.

Oh, I believe you.

Classical Wing Chun's in-close, involved, and complicated training in LS and CS is not realistic and all that useful against anyone other than a fellow Wing Chun guy. I've already explained why. Don't believe me? Again, just watch the numerous Wing Chun sparring clips on youtube and find one that shows any of the involved combinations of movements typically trained in LS and CS.

Ah, geez. Still looking for CS and LS combos to show up in a fight, or to "work" against other styles?

It has gone so far over your head you didn't even feel the wind!

The attributes and skills learned from VT training may show up in real fighting, but evidently they are not recognizable as actual VT techniques. VT as LFJ describes it seems almost the opposite of the maxim to "Fight the way you train and train the way you fight."

Punch, kick, plam, faak, wu, paak, jat, bong aren't recognizable VT tools?

LFJ's approach would be to train something on an abstract level with no direct application for many years until at some point the "big picture" can come together to produce a good fighter. Nothing wrong with that approach! But from my perspective I would say it is not as efficient.

You can have no idea how efficient something is if you have no clear conception of what it actually is.

It does not take many years. You are making things up because you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[LFJ]

Regardless of how some of his past posts may have been worded, I don't think he believes WC/VT to be inherently useless, otherwise why would he still be training it?

Good question! Many people continue to do irrational things for unexplainable reasons.

I think because he has dedicated so much time to it and being able to teach makes him feel good about himself, though the insecurity and self-doubt is painfully obvious at times.

I think it is more likely reflective of your very distinct personality types and outlook on the world.

Ha! What's my outlook on the world?

I didn't even start MA training with VT. I came from other effective styles.
I already knocked teeth out and had teeth knocked out.
If VT didn't work, I wouldn't waste time on it.

When I first came to VT, I saw a lot of crap, then settled into a lineage I thought was good.

Then I discovered my understanding, though better than the average crap, was filled with holes, and I continued learning in another direction.

Now I have no questions or uncertainties about the system, but I'm still willing to change if something better can be demonstrated to me. But so far, in YMVT, other lineages have not been worth a second look.

 

[LFJ]

the I-Method

This is a good method for technique-based martial arts, so long as the technique is realistic.

VT isn't one that teaches 1:1 applications, so it takes a different method.

VT is about developing a certain behavior for fighting with a few simple tools, so it focuses on developing this and correcting errors through its unique training methods.

Difficult to understand for those who have no experience with this and are only familiar with technique-based approaches to fighting.

Many false assumptions can be made and inaccurate conclusions drawn when one hasn't experienced it firsthand.

 

[KPM]

Many false assumptions can be made and inaccurate conclusions drawn when one hasn't experienced it firsthand.

And when people seem adverse to posting videos showing how all those abstract training methods actually work in a real situation......

 

[KPM]

how do you feel modern Western boxing complements WC/VT better than say historical Western pugilism from the bare knuckle era 0f the 18th and 19th Centuries. I know that some would maintain that early pugilism is not an inferior method, but in fact a better method when applied in a bare-knuckle rule-set.

----Now that is a perfect example of a fighting method evolving! I truly believe that the Tysons, Lamenchenkos, Mayweathers, and Alis of today would destroy any of those old-timers, regardless of the rule sets. The old school method is not nearly as fast or mobile as modern boxing. You can see that in old footage that exists. They just look a bit awkward and slow compared to modern fighters. And I don't say this lightly. I spent a good amount of time researching old boxing manuals and really working on reproducing what they did. If you really look at Martin Austwick's stuff, I think he is letting a little too much of his modern boxing influence creep into what he is doing. The old school method was very much a "one punch at a time" kind of exchange compared to the numerous rapid combinations of punches used today. That more or less "sideways" positioning in the old school method narrowed and made the target smaller and harder to hit for the opponent at the expense of making the rear hand less responsive and useable as a weapon. You saw from my youtube series how well the old school boxing methods can match up to "classical" Wing Chun. But I quickly decided that neither the old school boxing method nor the Wing Chun really benefited from the combination. However, as I've explained elsewhere, its a different case with modern boxing methods and Wing Chun.


Also, my instincts tell me that it is not the technique of WV/VT fighting that are so lacking, as the training methods. Too little emphasis on resistance training and sparring, vs. too much emphasis on drilling techniques by themselves.

----Very true! If Wing Chun guys want to be known as fighters, then they need to start training more like fighters. And just doing forms and Chi Sau ain't it!

I'll re-post Thornton's clip of the I-Method to show what we are missing (see around 4:35):

---Great clip! And if you really listen to what he is saying, it is much the same thing I have been trying to say on this thread. However, it seems to have gone right over LFJ's head, based on his response!

 

[geezer]

I'll re-post Thornton's clip of the I-Method to show what we are missing (see around 4:35):

---Great clip! And if you really listen to what he is saying, it is much the same thing I have been trying to say on this thread. However, it seems to have gone right over LFJ's head, based on his response!

Nope. It didn't go "over his head". He simply doesn't agree as far as his VT is concerned. He is very satisfied with the results of his training. And one thing LFJ said that did make sense to me was: VT is about developing a certain behavior for fighting with a few simple tools, so it focuses on developing this and correcting errors through its unique training methods.

I agree in that I think that all real fighting is more about "developing a certain behavior for fighting with a few simple tools..." --than collecting a bag of tricks. Ironically, I see this as supporting your position in our original discussion of overly complicated lat-sau and chi-sau routines. I see VT/WC as learning a way to move, a way to fight. The complicated routines can ultimately be a distraction.

 

[KPM]

Nope. It didn't go "over his head". He simply doesn't agree as far as his VT is concerned. He is very satisfied with the results of his training. And one thing LFJ said that did make sense to me was: VT is about developing a certain behavior for fighting with a few simple tools, so it focuses on developing this and correcting errors through its unique training methods.

.

Yeah, I guess you're probably right! The problem is, there is very little evidence that it actually works. When WSLVT guys start winning sparring bouts with non-Wing Chun people on a regular basis....and actually providing the video evidence of it for all to see, then I'll be willing to start believing that it is the best thing since the invention of sliced bread! Until then, I'll stick to my "application-based" method and things that have actually been proven to work.

 

[geezer]

Ha! What's my outlook on the world?

Dunno for sure. But obviously pretty different from KPM's. For one thing, you have found what you are looking for and express great confidence in the WSL-VT you have trained. KPM is still looking for a system or combination of systems that will be more effective. You speak as one who believes in what you know. KPM speaks from an almost agnostic perspective, searching, but also seeming to doubt that pre-digested answers exist.

The believer and the agnostic. You see the problem.

I didn't even start MA training with VT. I came from other effective styles.
I already knocked teeth out and had teeth knocked out.

No gumshields?

Seriously, when I was young, I also knocked out a guy's tooth --with a head butt. Yeah, I was a real hard-man.

Oh ...did I mention it happened playing a game of Frisbee? A very effective style!

 

[geezer]

Yeah, I guess you're probably right! The problem is, there is very little evidence that it actually works.

Wrong again. There are countless videos to back up these claims.


....unfortunately, we'll never see them.

 

[Marnetmar]

Not to be that guy, but the WT version of the lap sau drill is wonky as hell. How can you call it a useful drill if neither of you are even using bong sau for its intended purpose? If you're just holding your arm there in a vaguely bong-sau position instead of making the contact and spiraling forward to deflect, of course the guy can just step in and punch right over it!

What is even the purpose of that version of the drill and how does it do anything other than create bad habits?

 

[LFJ]

And when people seem adverse to posting videos showing how all those abstract training methods actually work in a real situation......

......grown men cry about it on internet forums.

 

[LFJ]

Nope. It didn't go "over his head". He simply doesn't agree as far as his VT is concerned.

Correct.

I agree in that I think that all real fighting is more about "developing a certain behavior for fighting with a few simple tools..." --than collecting a bag of tricks. Ironically, I see this as supporting your position in our original discussion of overly complicated lat-sau and chi-sau routines. I see VT/WC as learning a way to move, a way to fight. The complicated routines can ultimately be a distraction.

Something that KPM seems to be confused about, is that WSLVT doesn't have 20-step choreography for LS or CS "sections".

There are some simple actions and appropriate responses taught to beginners, then improvisations from there. It is not teaching fight choreography, but principles of movement and skill development/ error correction.

None of this is prearranged or 4+step choreography. It's not fighting, but a stage of training before sparring/fighting to develop certain skills, and after sparring/fighting to correct errors discovered under pressure.

To understand the training method and goal, you have to know what you're doing form the very beginning. You can't look at a later stage of training with no knowledge of the method and draw any informed conclusions on efficiency or efficacy.

 

[LFJ]

For one thing, you have found what you are looking for and express great confidence in the WSL-VT you have trained. KPM is still looking for a system or combination of systems that will be more effective. You speak as one who believes in what you know. KPM speaks from an almost agnostic perspective, searching, but also seeming to doubt that pre-digested answers exist.

The believer and the agnostic. You see the problem.

Well, you are incorrect about that.

Having satisfaction and confidence in what I train does not mean my cup is full.
I wouldn't have gotten to where I am now if I were that type of person. Would've stayed with earlier interpretations.

I simply have not found better VT at this point, but will be making the switch once again as soon as I do!

 

[KPM]

......grown men cry about it on internet forums.

While other grown men go on and on about it and how much better their beliefs are than everyone else's while expecting everyone to have faith without evidence as if they belonged to some kind of cult.

 

[LFJ]

While other grown men go on and on about it and how much better their beliefs are than everyone else's while expecting everyone to have faith without evidence as if they belonged to some kind of cult.

Uh, no. I don't care to have you believe what the system I train in involves.
You can either go verify it yourself, or stay home. Doesn't matter to me.

But, you have admitted the WC you know is incomplete, flawed, and impractical.
So, you are basically admitting the inferiority of most WC yourself. I need not say anything.

 

[KPM]

Something that KPM seems to be confused about, is that WSLVT doesn't have 20-step choreography for LS or CS "sections".

---It still has a pretty involved drilling format for both.

None of this is prearranged or 4+step choreography. It's not fighting, but a stage of training before sparring/fighting to develop certain skills, and after sparring/fighting to correct errors discovered under pressure.

---Then why do we never see WSLVT videos of the sparring/fighting where these skills are being used?


To understand the training method and goal, you have to know what you're doing form the very beginning. You can't look at a later stage of training with no knowledge of the method and draw any informed conclusions on efficiency or efficacy.

---Sure you can. The end product either works or it doesn't. No one needs to know the details of every step that got to the end product. And then you look at long it takes to get to that end product. If you can't fight well until that end product is achieved, and it takes several years to achieve the end product....then that isn't very efficient! Waiting for the "big picture" to come together at the end of the training before you have something workable is not very efficient!

---Once again......a clip with lots of Chi Sau and training drills and not a single second showing all those skills being applied in sparring. And I will maintain that all those switches from side to side with repeated Bong Saus that we see in nearly every PB video is simply not going to work against a non-Wing Chun person that doesn't throw nice straight punches along the centerline.

 

[KPM]

Uh, no. I don't care to have you believe what the system I train in involves.
You can either go verify it yourself, or stay home. Doesn't matter to me.

But, you have admitted the WC you know is incomplete, flawed, and impractical.
So, you are basically admitting the inferiority of most WC yourself. I need not say anything.

No, I believe Wing Chun works fine for what it was designed for. But I think fighting has changed somewhat over time and Wing Chun needs a reboot.

 

[wckf92]

Sorry Gents...not specifically related to thread topic but...

Question for the WSLVT folks: watch what PB does to his training partner at the :42 mark. He seems to disrupt the guys stance with a sidewards leg/kicking motion.
Does that tripping leg motion have a name in WSLVT? Thx.

 

[LFJ]

---It still has a pretty involved drilling format for both.

Involved, as in difficult for you, as an uninformed onlooker to comprehend. So?

---Then why do we never see WSLVT videos of the sparring/fighting where these skills are being used?

For much of the same reason you don't see tutorials either.

---Sure you can. The end product either works or it doesn't. No one needs to know the details of every step that got to the end product. And then you look at long it takes to get to that end product. If you can't fight well until that end product is achieved, and it takes several years to achieve the end product....then that isn't very efficient!

But, you don't even know what the end product is supposed to be...

It doesn't take several years. You're talking out of your uninformed yet biased 4th POC.

---Once again......a clip with lots of Chi Sau and training drills and not a single second showing all those skills being applied in sparring.

Correct. You gonna cry about it?

And I will maintain that all those switches from side to side with repeated Bong Saus that we see in nearly every PB video is simply not going to work against a non-Wing Chun person that doesn't throw nice straight punches along the centerline.

Again?

I don't know if you're genuinely retarded or what, but you have been told repeatedly, for years, that is not the point.

It's like you have some mental block that won't allow you to see it as anything other than a fight.

No, I believe Wing Chun works fine for what it was designed for. But I think fighting has changed somewhat over time and Wing Chun needs a reboot.

Fighting in the past never had long-range occur? Don't think I believe you.

How do you know WC works fine at short-range if no one ever seems to get there?