DTE Combat Wing Chun Lap Sau drill fighting application

[Tez3]

It works and I really don't care how anyone labels it.

Exactly!

 

[drop bear]

No I'm not going to exhaustively detail frame by frame what I see, all that will happen is that you will vehemently argue that I'm wrong, rinse/repeat.

---So you can honestly watch that clip above without knowing beforehand which guy is the Wing Chun guy and still pick him out? Really? Is his opponent doing any less of the "certain elements" that you attribute to Wing Chun?


Bobbing and weaving/head evasion isn't part of what you do? Fair enough, I consider slipping punches a high level skill and it's certainly part of my armory.

---If you've added them that's fine. But then that isn't "classical" Wing Chun. Its Wing Chun going the way of MMA. Which is Ok too!


You seem very straight jacketed in your opinion of how wing Chun should be expressed, pity as I thought you were more enlightened.

---No, I see nothing wrong with Wing Chun evolving and changing. But I also think one should be up-front and honest about it.


Ok, so we've given plenty of opinions on what we feel applied Wc might look like. What are you expecting to see?

---Its not what I'm expecting to see, its what I'm expecting NOT to see! Which I already listed!

---My viewpoint: Sparring should not be seen as a thing unto itself. It should be seen as a platform for training, just like Chi Sau is a platform for training. Everyone realizes that good technique goes to sh!t under pressure. Sparring is the opportunity to put a student under pressure and see what goes to sh!t. Then he knows what he needs to go back and work on. If you saw someone bobbing and weaving, breaking center, giving up their structure, etc in Chi Sau....wouldn't you point these things out as something to work on? Something that needs improvement? Why is it any different when it comes to sparring? Why does everyone get all offended if someone points out how they are losing their Wing Chun structure and technique when sparring? Are you training Wing Chun? Or are you training to be a good sparer? Why do we have such a high standard for Wing Chun in our forms and drills and such a low standard for Wing Chun when it comes to sparring? Any good martial art should strive to train the way it fights and fight the way it trains. Sparring is a great environment to bring all those hours of training to the fight. But if you start being content with resorting to sloppy kickboxing, then you are wasting all those hours of training. Now, one might very well find adjustments and modifications to their Wing Chun that are more successful in sparring. That's great and how things progress and evolve! But if you aren't then going back and putting those modifications into your training, again you are wasting time and not training efficiently.

---So again, are you training Wing Chun? Or are you training to be good at sparring? (general question for everyone)

You can train in multiple disciplines. And spar in multiple disciplines if you want to. The trick is to know why you are sparring in a certain manner.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Training in multiple disciplines will give you a richer understanding of your base art..,

 

[Jake104]

For those who don't know about him ...Martin isn't really a Wing Chun guy. What does that make me then Steve?? Am I not a Wing Chun man, since I'm not learning from "a WC man"?? There is 30 years of Coach Martin's training that maybe 20 years you may have not been there to witness, right? You did take a break for a good amount of time while he continued his training.. He is teaching me Wing Chun, we do forms and then break down the movements. Then we move into application..Just like in my previous traditional training.. but like in the first part of what you say next ----->His outlook is much broader than WC, but WC concepts definitely figure into the picture. Some of us see DTE as "What JKD should be!" So why can't it be Wing Chun?? He's teaching me at a more advanced level.. That doesn't mean if a new student with zero WC experience came to learn, he wouldn't teach them the basic core concepts, forms, and basic drills.. It's just means we can go beyond that. Going beyond doesn't have to imply that we neglect the basic principles and concepts of what makes WC..WC.. The video or what he shows me or even what he has shown you in the past, is the end goal.. It's what we can expect and look forward to from an art like Wing Chun.. But we don't start there, we start where everyone else starts. Don't get my comments like when I say "We at DTE don't care what someone labels our art" twisted.. What We mean is, it is Wing Chun and if people don't see that it's their loss...To bad for them

or ... I think of Martin as our answer to Alan Orr, except that Martin doesn't care if you see the WC in his stuff or not. The point is that is works! I'm just sorry that I live on the wrong side of the valley and don't get to train with you guys anymore. Gonna have to fix that.

Now for the negative side of my commentary. Jake, get some new pants!

 

[KPM]

^^^ I'll probably catch hell again, but oh well! IMHO....if you are not using the core mechanics of Wing Chun...if you aren't moving like Wing Chun teaches to move in its forms and drills.... if your powerbase is not what Wing Chun is teaching in its forms and drills...then it is no longer Wing Chun. You can graft Wing Chun principles onto many different arts. That doesn't automatically make them Wing Chun. For this reason, JKD is its "own thing"....its "own art"....and not just a modified version of Wing Chun. Now Martin may very well start out with Wing Chun as a base, just as many of the JKD guys do....and there is nothing wrong with that! But if, in the end, you are using a different core mechanics in the way you are moving and applying things, then you have departed from your Wing Chun base and are now doing something else. And there is nothing wrong with that! It is something that may draw on the Wing Chun training, but I wouldn't call it "Wing Chun." "DTE Wing Chun"....as a qualifier that you aren't doing "classical" Wing Chun maybe? Would Martin tell someone he is doing "Wing Chun"? Or would he say he is doing DTE?

 

[Jake104]

Don't worry I'm not gonna give you too much crap... In Wing Chun class we Do Wing Chun! Plain and simple period!!.Thats it! I never did a Ip man lineage so my base or foundation in WC is not going to look like those other lineages..I have classical training (mainland). And... I still maintain my WC core principles.. And... body mechanics from the drills and forms, in sparring and fighting... I get what you're saying.. it gets lost.. But personally I maintain it and always have.. From both my original training and DTE.. So??

The training in WC I get now is still just an advanced version of the same thing.. In Combatives or Eskrima I'll agree maybe with you..that yes I modify those....Nah..But then again maybe I won't . The training I get now jives perfect with my 'traditional' WC..

 

[Jake104]

He calls it DTE Combat Wing Chun.. that doesn't mean the core principles, theory, drills, forms and tradition gets lost. Martin feels it's important to know where what we do comes from.. IMO Hawkins Cheung knows more about JKD and what it was supposed to be.. then you or Steve

 

[geezer]

He calls it DTE Combat Wing Chun.. that doesn't mean the core principles, theory, drills, forms and tradition gets lost. Martin feels it's important to know where what we do comes from.. IMO Hawkins Cheung knows more about JKD and what it was supposed to be.. then you or Steve

Heck, I dunno. DTE is way broader than any WC I saw. And some of the guys that train it don't even like WC. Coach Jeff, for example, isn't a big fan of classical WC. Both Martin and Jeff have made the comment that DTE is sort of like what JKD should be. Each of us makes something different out of it. As to what to call it... Who cares!

And regarding JKD, I don't know squat. Never trained it. But still it's nice to be mentioned in the same sentence as Hawkins Cheung ...even if only to say that I am ignorant by comparison. True that!

Anyway, nice to see you posting again Jake. If you could get some more videos, that would be great!

 

[Jake104]

Heck, I dunno. DTE is way broader than any WC I saw. And some of the guys that train it don't even like WC. Coach Jeff, for example, isn't a big fan of classical WC. Both Martin and Jeff have made the comment that DTE is sort of like what JKD should be. Each of us makes something different out of it. As to what to call it... Who cares!

And regarding JKD, I don't know squat. Never trained it. But still it's nice to be mentioned in the same sentence as Hawkins Cheung ...even if only to say that I am ignorant by comparison. True that!

Anyway, nice to see you posting again Jake. If you could get some more videos, that would be great!

Some of those you speak of just don't like crappy Wing Chun.. You haven't been to a class in a while but both Martin and Jeff actually refer to chi sao and Wing Chun quite often now in their teaching of any DTE art..

DTE IS broader then just WC.. but now Wing Chun is What Martin wants too share and teach, so hopefully you can expect more video's..

I'm not trying to beat you up in here Steve.. I'm just clarifying things and spreading DTE Combat Wing Chun as I learn it directly from the source..busting Your balls is just a bonus