Chi-sau Vs. Lat Sau- What is your opinion?

[Vajramusti]

Also, Jeff, excited to hear why/how your brand of WT doesn't couple with the shin on shin contact ect.. would love to hear any/all thoughts from a different version of WT.

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Interesting discussion.I don't do lat sao- Kernspecht or Leung Ting style.

Our lat sao flows in and out of chi sao-breaking off engagement and re-enngaging.

 

[Thunder Foot]

The no bridge is simply the starting point. Once you move into close range, a bridge must be built and maintained in order to control and feel the intentions of your opponent.
By having shin contact with our lead leg against the leg of our opponent, we are able to not only sense when a kick is being attempted, we are able to unbalance the opponent and keep the kick from ever happening.
By being in contact with the leg, we are able to sense as he moves away and stick to him, maintaining a constant presence in his face, instead of having to re-enter our range every time he moves back.

Same for the arms. It begins from no bridge, and we move into range where we are able to stick to our opponent's arms. If he tries to crash through the center, our arms are there to deter. If he tries to go around them, then our arms thrust forward and attack, they don't stick for the sake of sticking.
Chi sau/lat sau are both very close range. The better we are able to nullify the opponent's attacks, the more effecient we will be.

As for chain punching, the WT fighter seeks to end the fight as quickly and effeciently as possible. The chain punch is as much an overall strategy being trained as it is a tactic to be employed.
The new student doesn't have many tools at his disposal, so the chain punch is a way of imparting this concept of dominating the fight and centerline early on.

The further you get in WT, the more options you have at your disposal, but so many times a quick flurry down the middle ends it, so there is no need to go on to other things.
The best WT is simple WT.

Thanks for the reply. This is how I understood it as well at first glance, but i wanted to confirm with some of you that train this. I understand that a bridge must be established, at which point people can stick. But I was told by some peers of mine that one property of HK lat sau, is as they called it "earning the bridge", which I believe has to do with timing your opponent coming in, or yourself moving in at which point a bridge happens... then having the sensitivity to stick and control that range. I'm sure my understanding is immensely limited, but if German lat sau begins stuck, are we assuming that the bridge has already be earned by both? (If I make any sense here, lol). Also, just curious as to if anyone has a rough number of attacks or defenses that could result in this specific type of starting bridge?

The chain punch as you described, is also how I understood it... a tool to bring out the reflexive occupation of the centerline. But when I look at this drill it appears to me as if it presumes the attacker will attack in this manner upon bridge connection. Maybe its just the starting point to open the doorway to other attack/defense sequences? Again, sorry for my limited understanding.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

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Interesting discussion.I don't do lat sao- Kernspecht or Leung Ting style.

Our lat sao flows in and out of chi sao-breaking off engagement and re-enngaging.

We just call this "Gwoh-sau" or "chi-sau-fighting". Lat-sau is completely diffrent training tool for us, but to each their own.

Thanks for the post!

All the best,

Jeff

 

[Thunder Foot]

Jeez louise dudesky, you ask AWESOME questions....

Jeff

Very informative! As far as Lat sau, we typically begin lat sau in the man sau/wu sau position, not touching and thats pretty much it. I've been told it's the HK method, but I wouldn't know beyond our practice as there isn't much online in regards to lat sau outside of the German method. I believe I understand the basic principles, so I am more inquiring towards the German method as I've never practiced it.

I have and do practice JKD locally, however my path has led me to the realization that what I've learned may lack structure and foundation. Since, I've been actively practicing VT (WC not sure if they are different haha) as well for the past year and a half. My hope is that it will give me some deeper insight into the ideas behind some of the other material I've learned. So far so good...

 

[Punchy]

Thanks for the reply. This is how I understood it as well at first glance, but i wanted to confirm with some of you that train this. I understand that a bridge must be established, at which point people can stick. But I was told by some peers of mine that one property of HK lat sau, is as they called it "earning the bridge", which I believe has to do with timing your opponent coming in, or yourself moving in at which point a bridge happens... then having the sensitivity to stick and control that range. I'm sure my understanding is immensely limited, but if German lat sau begins stuck, are we assuming that the bridge has already be earned by both? (If I make any sense here, lol). Also, just curious as to if anyone has a rough number of attacks or defenses that could result in this specific type of starting bridge?

The chain punch as you described, is also how I understood it... a tool to bring out the reflexive occupation of the centerline. But when I look at this drill it appears to me as if it presumes the attacker will attack in this manner upon bridge connection. Maybe its just the starting point to open the doorway to other attack/defense sequences? Again, sorry for my limited understanding.

No need to apologize...we're all students. I love having these discussions because it helps us all understand better.

The German lat sao doesn't "stick" in the chi sau sense (other than the shin pressure being adhered to).
It is very good at getting students comfortable at a very close range. It builds a good fighting spirit, because you have to stay in there and go at it or your partner will dominate.
It pressure tests your stance, your structure, helps develop springiness and forward pressure....all things that chi sau develops to be sure, only the lat sau is a little more explicit than chi sau. Chi sau can be rather abstract to the new student, the GLS is more concrete.

It isn't designed to be comprehensive, rather it is providing some templates to get the new student up and running with some basic WT concepts and techniques.
If you watch intermediate or advanced practitioners performing the same basic German lat sao, it looks different because the lat sau has begun to take on more of a chi sau type characteristic.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Also, Jeff, excited to hear why/how your brand of WT doesn't couple with the shin on shin contact ect.. would love to hear any/all thoughts from a different version of WT.

First off, I would like to say that even in Leung Ting Wing Tsun, you do learn some basic chi-gerk before 4th technician, but to learn all the (chi-gerk) sections you wait till after you learn the dummy.

However there is way better tuition you can find out there nowadays (Like City Wing Tsun: headed by Sifu Alex Richter )

I fear either you have misunderstood what I said, or I wasn't concise enough in my explanation. I do believe in leg/leg contact. But I don't believe in the German Lat-sau way of doing it. Keeping yourself in one spot does nothing to creative an intelligent fighter, and I'm all about approaching each and every situation in it's own way. In GLS, it is assumed that you have already created the bridge (i.e. leg/leg contact) but honestly that is what most people need to be drilled on most: entering.

I would much rather step "through" an opponent rather than to him. I wish I had a good video camera and I could just do a couple of short video's, maybe I'll ask my buddy and my dad to help me out this weekend if they have the time.

Anyways, bridging the gap and going forward and keeping your opponent uncomfortable with the distance control is my fighting application I use for my particular wing tsun brand. My personal brand (that I teach) is very aggressive and always moving forward. I see too many wasted movements in alot of wing tsun branches. Again this is my point of view, I don't claim to be an expert on ALL the wing tsun lineages, but I have some very valuable practical fighting knowledge, and also I am an accomplished wrestler, so I am very comfortable up close and personal.
Footwork, distance and timing are the cornerstones of the way I view wing tsun. You need to be mobile, control the pace of the engagement and give yourself enough room to operate and keep yourself safe.

I really want to post a video on bong-sau; I see many lineages using a very retracted bong-sau and for me this just never worked. I like to use my bong-sau kinda in a man-sau like manner, by (again) moving forward and letting my arm guide me. The more distance you have between yourself and your opponent means more operating room. But you need to keep pressure on the opponent whilst giving yourself room, and this is the hardest thing to explain to someone with no concept of distance.

Anyways, my mind seems to be wandering into tangent after tangent today, all the best and I would love to hear what your thoughts on WingTsun theories and concepts (protaining to your personal way of applying the art).

 

[Vajramusti]

We just call this "Gwoh-sau" or "chi-sau-fighting". Lat-sau is completely diffrent training tool for us, but to each their own.

Thanks for the post!

All the best,

Jeff

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Yes- to each its own. Problems in comparative usage of terms. Gor sao is attacking.
The Leung Ting chi sao is different so we have a problem in terminology... and details of actions.
It's ok.

 

[WTchap]

Following on from Jeff's comments about pace and aggression, here is my Sifu teaching at a seminar (and no, this is not the standard way we sharpen knives :karate.

 

[Punchy]

Following on from Jeff's comments about pace and aggression, here is my Sifu teaching at a seminar (and no, this is not the standard way we sharpen knives :karate.

Sifu Maday is impressive. I love watching his stuff.
You are very fortunate to be able to learn from him.

BTW, here's one I like.

 

[WTchap]

Yes, I am lucky to be living in Hungary (for lots of reasons). Really good group of WT guys to train with, and very open with the data. As a Brit with hardly any Hungarian language skills, I am something of an oddity in classes.

And that is some pretty old footage from Hong Kong :high5:.

Sifu Maday's level of skill and knowledge: Asian :asian:

LOL

 

[geezer]

:high5:.
Sifu Maday's level of skill and knowledge: Asian :asian:

LOL

Just from what I've seen on Youtbe clips, Sifu Maday has terrific skill. He reminds me of a bigger, hairier version of my old Sifu, LT. Especially back in the late 80s when LT had a black goatee beard like that. Same movement, same speed, even the same "warrior" attitude. Of course everyone knows that LT is Norbert Maday's sifu as well. But there's more to it than that. Of all of us who trained WT with LT, only a few had the ability, brains and drive to reach that warrior level. Not me, that's for sure. But clearly Sifu Maday is one of those few. As Yak said, your lucky to train under him!

BTW, I wouldn't call that level of skill "Asian". IMHO, A lot of those guys in Hong Kong never reach that level of competence either. Some of the best WT/WC today is practiced around the world outside China.

 

[Punchy]

Yes, I am lucky to be living in Hungary (for lots of reasons). Really good group of WT guys to train with, and very open with the data. As a Brit with hardly any Hungarian language skills, I am something of an oddity in classes.

And that is some pretty old footage from Hong Kong :high5:.

Sifu Maday's level of skill and knowledge: Asian :asian:

LOL

Did you study previously back home in EWTO? If so, what do you perceive as the differences? Or is the this your first taste of WT?

 

[WTchap]

Did you study previously back home in EWTO? If so, what do you perceive as the differences? Or is the this your first taste of WT?

The answer is a little tricky! :wink1: My first taste of WT was many years ago in Budapest, when I came here for a work placement. I studied for a few months, and then work took me elsewhere. When back in the UK, I checked out schools in the EWTO but opted not to train with them at that point. I really didn't know enough about Wing Tsun to know exactly what was different, but I could see it was different.

Looking back, mostly it was the training methods - in Hungary the classes had been sweaty and hard work, often leaving you bruised having taken a few hits. In the UK, no one seemed to land any punches on each other. The UK WT classes were good in terms of the technical teaching (and the instructors I met - both Paul Hawkes and Andrew Cameron were nice people), it just look so soft and compliant compared to WT in Hungary.

So I opted to look for something else. I found Kamon Wing Chun, and this looked like good, honest, physical training. More in line with the practical practice I'd been exposed to in Hungary. I trained with Kamon for about 3 years, maybe a little less, but over time realized that something was missing in Kamon, technically. (at this point I was thinking I'd find it hard to get the best of both worlds) But as luck would have it, love and life brought me back to Budapest and so back to the HWTO, in the EEWTO. :boing2:

I'm probably not qualified therefore, to say what all of the differences are between WT in Hungary and WT in the EWTO. However I do have lots of friends in Europe who study WT in the EWTO (and some are madly good).

Certainly the physical nature of the training is different, but also something in the body method that I can't quite put my finger on. It is almost like in Hungary there is movement of the waist, more twisting and turning of the torso; while the guys from western Europe seem to move in a more linear way (does that make sense?).

Personally, I think that KK in Germany has, over the years, added in new programs of his own creation, and added in his own ideas and understanding and that this has modified what is taught. As was and is his right to do so. Perhaps what people learn in the EWTO today is very different to what it taught, say, 20 years ago. I certainly think it looks a bit different.

Maday Norbert, here in Hungary, has his own flavor of WT, I guess (every teacher does), but he is basically teaching as he has been taught by LT. When LT comes here to give seminars (he visits once per year at least), no one is shocked by what LT is teaching. On the other hand, I have heard more than one EWTO student/teacher express confusion at the difference between what they have been learning from KK and the EWTO team, and what LT taught them when he visited Germany. I don't know how true it is, but I heard that when many Scandinavian and Nordic WT guys left the organization in the 90s, it was for this reason - they felt that EWTO was, essentially, not teaching the full LT WingTsun.

But maybe the best person to ask would be someone like Patrik Gavelin in Sweden. He was in the EWTO, I believe, and is now training with Cheng Chuen Fun and Chris Collins - so he's had exposure to both brands of WT, and at instructor level.

:drinky:

Sorry Jeff, this thread was about Chi Sau vs Lat Sau, and here I am talking about WT in Europe and what I found missing at Kamon in London. :burp:

 

[Punchy]

I see what you're saying as far as the differences.

My first exposure to WT was from a 1TG who had trained originally under Richard Guerra and Robert Jacques ( who learned from Leung Ting) before EB took over the AWTO. Even back then with limited knowledge, I was able to see there was a difference in his approach.

From there, the rest of my training came from my sifu and a couple of my si soks, who were products of EWTO training.
I was with them for about 10 years, but am now training with a Chinese sifu who is a product of HK WT training and have been with him for a little over 7 years.
Like you, I more feel the difference than see it. There is more roundness and smoothness to the movements, and less emphasis on "hard" angles, and like you said, there seems to be more waist rotation.

I have heard from a German WT instructor ( he was a 4TG under KK and went on to train under my Chinese sifu as well) that KK deliberately shows a different flavor of WT to the masses and reserves the "true" Chinese version for a select few. Anecdotal, so who knows how true?

 

[Punchy]

BTW, you mentioned that there was less contact in the EWTO when you learned it?

My old sifu apparently didn't get the memo. Holy crap was there contact!

 

[WTchap]

My old sifu apparently didn't get the memo. Holy crap was there contact!

LOL Yes, this might just have been common to the classes I visited in the UK. Some of the EWTO people in Sweden, for example, didn't go easy on the power!