Different Approaches to the Lap-Sau Drill

[KPM]

Forgive my lack of Chinese comprehension but if lop sau is translated as 'grabbing hand' or something like it, can the last 2 vids be fairly called lop sau drills?

---I'm sure LFJ can tell us what the Chinese character for "Lop/Lap/Larp" actually translates to in English, but I like to think if it more as "displacing hand" than "grabbing hand." Sometimes it latches on and sometimes it just moves something away without grabbing.

 

[LFJ]

What I'm talking about are the involved more complicated things like the various "switches" from one side to the other in LS that rely on the guy having his hand up in a proper Wu Sau....like a Wing Chun guy.

You are simply looking at the exercise in the wrong way, misunderstanding the purpose.

It's not presenting a proper wu-sau so that this next move can be done on them as the next step in a fight.
It's checking and developing proper position and responsiveness of each other's wu-sau, among other things.

This is not fighting, but development. Perhaps hard to see if you are just looking on without explanation.

Or the multiple step techniques in CS that assume the guy is going to stand straight up in front of you and not "bob & weave" or simply step back and away. Or the more involved techniques in either LS or CS that only work when the partner is throwing a nice straight centerline punch and keeping both hands on the center. Show me video of a single real sparring exchange where a Wing Chun guy does something as straight-forward as a Bong/Lop Da motion on one side and then switches it to the other side with another Bong/Lop Da motion on that side.

Again, you are entirely misunderstanding the point of the exercises.

So I'm not sure which "attributes and skills" you are developing with the more involved LS training combinations,

A myriad of things. Coordination, synchronicity, footwork, power, timing, speed, balance, reflexes, not freezing, not overreacting, etc., etc..

Training dynamically with improvisations checks and develops all of these things in an unpredictable fashion while still in a clean and controlled VT environment, where we can pause and reexamine what needs work.

Again, we're not opponents fighting, but partners developing together.

but the technique combinations themselves certainly don't translate over to real fighting methods that I have ever seen.

The point is not to train prescribed combinations for an imagined fight.

It's training in such a way as to develop the intuitive ability to act uninterruptedly and with precision.

Which begs the question.....why not develop those same attributes and skills using techniques that actually DO show up in real fighting??

Like punch, kick, palm, faak, paak, jat, bong...?

All of these are used in fighting. Actual sparring and fighting is just simpler than the training.

 

[LFJ]

Forgive my lack of Chinese comprehension but if lop sau is translated as 'grabbing hand' or something like it, can the last 2 vids be fairly called lop sau drills?

---I'm sure LFJ can tell us what the Chinese character for "Lop/Lap/Larp" actually translates to in English, but I like to think if it more as "displacing hand" than "grabbing hand." Sometimes it latches on and sometimes it just moves something away without grabbing.

Cantonese speakers usually use this character 擸 while it is uncommonly used in Mandarin, where instead they use this character 拉. Both essentially mean the same thing; to pull.

But, this is kind of like the term chi-sau (sticking arms) in how it's a visual description of the exercise, but not what we are actually doing.

The laap-sau drilling platform looks like we are pulling on each other's arms, while we aren't actually using laap-sau, but jat-sau.

 

[geezer]

You are simply looking at the exercise in the wrong way, misunderstanding the purpose.

.... Again, you are entirely misunderstanding the point of the exercises.

LFJ, you make some good points, but again phrased in arrogant and insulting language guaranteed to provoke a hostile response and derail the thread. Why? ...when for once we were having a polite and productive discussion.

I don't believe KPM's comments were even directed at WSLVT anyway, but more generally at some systems that use Lap-Sau as a platform for elaborate sequences of attacks and counters. My own WT background was guilty of that. And I think his questioning is legitimate. You know, you could try to strike a more constructive tone. You might be surprised by actually getting a positive response for a change.

 

[LFJ]

The raised criticism and confusion regarding the method are the result of a fundamental misconception.
I stated so to say why the criticism is invalid, then explained exactly why that is so. So?

There's no offense to be taken from correction and information.

If the criticized understanding of CS and LS drilling is "correct" by other lineages, then I agree, it's mostly useless, and it just gets harder and harder to believe many people got much of anything from YM.

If someone wants to take offense to that last statement, I might understand, but then, it seems hard to disagree with if you agree that approach is so flawed and impractical.

 

[geezer]

The raised criticism and confusion regarding the method are the result of a fundamental misconception.
I stated so to say why the criticism is invalid, then explained exactly why that is so. So? There's no offense to be taken from correction and information.

Oh I see now. We were naively approaching this as an open discussion and sharing ideas. Since your identity is unknown to us, we didn't realize that you were such an absolute authority and that you already had the answers. Now we've cleared that up, I'm sure KPM will thank you for straightening out his misconceptions!

 

[KPM]

You are simply looking at the exercise in the wrong way, misunderstanding the purpose.

---Not true. As I said, I've trained that way in the past as well. And I'm saying with time and experience I no longer see that depth and intricacy of practice within the platform as valuable for real fighting. Can it develop attributes? Of course it can! But I maintain that if you are two or three levels removed from actual reality (dare I say "applying it" in a real situation) then the training is not really as useful as you think. And there are likely more "realistic" ways to develop similar skills and attributes. When was the last time you saw a Boxer, Kickboxer, or MMA fighter doing drills that didn't resemble in anyway what they actually planned to do in the ring?


A myriad of things. Coordination, synchronicity, footwork, power, timing, speed, balance, reflexes, not freezing, not overreacting, etc., etc..

---All things that could be developed in exercises and drills that actually make use of the things you would do or "apply" in a real exchange!


Training dynamically with improvisations checks and develops all of these things in an unpredictable fashion while still in a clean and controlled VT environment, where we can pause and reexamine what needs work.

---- I've been saying that a real fight is not going to be in a "VT environment" and what works in a "VT environment" may not work in a "real" environment. Fight the way you train and train the way you fight.


Again, we're not opponents fighting, but partners developing together.

----And if the partner that is assisting your development is not providing you with the type of responses and feedback that you would actually face in a real exchange, then how valuable are the things you are actually developing? Unless you plan on fighting other Wing Chun guys? Which might not be out of the question given how you carry on discussion here!


The point is not to train prescribed combinations for an imagined fight.

---I agree. The point should be to train skills, attributes, and reactions that would apply to a real fight. If your training partner is just giving you the feedback and responses of a fellow Wing Chun guy, then I would say that is not as useful in a real fight as you seem to think.


It's training in such a way as to develop the intuitive ability to act uninterruptedly and with precision.

---With precision that works on another Wing Chun guy. Because if it isn't being trained against non-Wing Chun responses, how useful is it really going to be???


Like punch, kick, palm, faak, paak, jat, bong...? All of these are used in fighting. Actual sparring and fighting is just simpler than the training.

---Sure. They are used in fighting....but not against a fellow Wing Chun guy as you are training them.

 

[LFJ]

You are simply looking at the exercise in the wrong way, misunderstanding the purpose.

---Not true. As I said, I've trained that way in the past as well.

Obviously not, since you don't understand it.

I maintain that if you are two or three levels removed from actual reality (dare I say "applying it" in a real situation) then the training is not really as useful as you think.

Forms training also relatively useless then? Should jump straight into sparring, huh?

And there are likely more "realistic" ways to develop similar skills and attributes. When was the last time you saw a Boxer, Kickboxer, or MMA fighter doing drills that didn't resemble in anyway what they actually planned to do in the ring?

It doesn't not resemble it in any way. Just not in the way you imagine.

A myriad of things. Coordination, synchronicity, footwork, power, timing, speed, balance, reflexes, not freezing, not overreacting, etc., etc..

---All things that could be developed in exercises and drills that actually make use of the things you would do or "apply" in a real exchange!

Punch, kick, palm, wu, faak, paak, jat, bong... All tools for fighting.

We will also train these things in pre-sparring drills, and actual sparring that can introduce other styles.

As stated, everything is in stages. You must be shown the big picture and how it all fits together.

---- I've been saying that a real fight is not going to be in a "VT environment" and what works in a "VT environment" may not work in a "real" environment.

You keep saying "work" as if CS and LS is some sort of pseudo-sparring match. It is not.

Again, we're not opponents fighting, but partners developing together.

----And if the partner that is assisting your development is not providing you with the type of responses and feedback that you would actually face in a real exchange, then how valuable are the things you are actually developing? Unless you plan on fighting other Wing Chun guys? Which might not be out of the question given how you carry on discussion here!

And once again, you must see the big picture.
This is merely one stage of training, and not yet pre-sparring drills or free sparring/fighting.

---I agree. The point should be to train skills, attributes, and reactions that would apply to a real fight. If your training partner is just giving you the feedback and responses of a fellow Wing Chun guy, then I would say that is not as useful in a real fight as you seem to think.

Do you think there is value in training SNT and having someone come and suddenly slap to check your wu-sau?

You probably think that's "unrealistic" because they don't do it with a haymaker. Right?...

It's training in such a way as to develop the intuitive ability to act uninterruptedly and with precision.

---With precision that works on another Wing Chun guy. Because if it isn't being trained against non-Wing Chun responses, how useful is it really going to be???

Precision that works against any style, because it is trained against non-WC responses.

Again, stages... big picture...

Like punch, kick, palm, faak, paak, jat, bong...? All of these are used in fighting. Actual sparring and fighting is just simpler than the training.

---Sure. They are used in fighting....but not against a fellow Wing Chun guy as you are training them.

They are not just trained against a fellow VT guy.

Again, stages... big picture...

 

[KPM]

Obviously not, since you don't understand it.

----Now you're just being argumentative again.

Forms training also relatively useless then? Should jump straight into sparring, huh?

---They may be useless if you see them as this grand abstraction that don't really teach how to use the techniques in a real situation. Personally I don't seem them as so abstract. As you are fond of pointing out, I see them as teaching applications for use. So I don't see the forms that I do as "useless" at all!


It doesn't not resemble it in any way. Just not in the way you imagine.

---And again, if what you are training is several levels away from real-time application....several steps removed from reality....then it might not be as useful as you think!


We will also train these things in pre-sparring drills, and actual sparring that can introduce other styles.

---Ok, great! Let's see it!

As stated, everything is in stages. You must be shown the big picture and how it all fits together.

---See, that's part of the problem......thinking that there is a "big picture" that has to "come together" to be useful, rather than learning how to apply things simply and directly in the way they are going to actually be used in a real situation. Now, there can be an overall strategy that one uses....ring fighters use that as a "big picture"....but thinking that you are learning all these techniques and fighting methods on an abstract, "non-application" level and they will somehow come together in the "big picture" later just seems very unrealistic to me. Train the way you fight and fight the way you train.



Do you think there is value in training SNT and having someone come and suddenly slap to check your wu-sau?

----Yes. That is a very straight-forward test of good structure and technique. Not abstract at all. Not removed from reality at all. Simple and direct.



Precision that works against any style, because it is trained against non-WC responses.

---Great! Show THAT to us then. After all, you wouldn't believe Phil Redmond when he said he used TWC successfully in sparring/fighting and asked him to prove it by showing video. I don't believe that all of your complicated and intricate LS platform drilling and switching etc. is going to be all that useful in sparring/fighting. So prove it.

 

[LFJ]

Forms training also relatively useless then? Should jump straight into sparring, huh?

---They may be useless if you see them as this grand abstraction that don't really teach how to use the techniques in a real situation. Personally I don't seem them as so abstract. As you are fond of pointing out, I see them as teaching applications for use. So I don't see the forms that I do as "useless" at all!

The abstraction does train behaviors for fighting. It is just that the forms are not as-is applications.

I'm sure you don't apply things with one arm standing in YJKYM while chambering the other fist at your side. Right?

It doesn't not resemble it in any way. Just not in the way you imagine.

---And again, if what you are training is several levels away from real-time application....several steps removed from reality....then it might not be as useful as you think!

Like your forms, according to this logic. But the logic is flawed.

As long as there are no steps missing up to and including free fighting, then it all fits together to develop functional fighting skill.

We will also train these things in pre-sparring drills, and actual sparring that can introduce other styles.

---Ok, great! Let's see it!

Doors are open around the world if really interested.

As stated, everything is in stages. You must be shown the big picture and how it all fits together.

---See, that's part of the problem......thinking that there is a "big picture" that has to "come together" to be useful, rather than learning how to apply things simply and directly in the way they are going to actually be used in a real situation. Now, there can be an overall strategy that one uses....ring fighters use that as a "big picture"....but thinking that you are learning all these techniques and fighting methods on an abstract, "non-application" level and they will somehow come together in the "big picture" later just seems very unrealistic to me. Train the way you fight and fight the way you train.

In seems unrealistic to you because you have no experience of this type of training system, don't really understand it, and are only left to draw inaccurate conclusions. I suggest going to experience it hands-on.

Do you think there is value in training SNT and having someone come and suddenly slap to check your wu-sau?

----Yes. That is a very straight-forward test of good structure and technique.

Then you should have no problem with CS and LS drills that do exactly this while progressively adding more dynamics to test everything, not just wu-sau, along the way.

It's in essence no different, and even closer to "reality" since it is involving actual full-body motion.

Not abstract at all. Not removed from reality at all. Simple and direct.

So, you think it is entirely realistic that one will be standing in YJKYM, with one arm chambered to the side, and have an attacker come and slap their wu-sau?

You don't seem to have a working concept of abstract vs reality. Get that fixed, and things might begin to make more sense.

Precision that works against any style, because it is trained against non-WC responses.

---Great! Show THAT to us then.

You're welcome to go check it out if interested.

After all, you wouldn't believe Phil Redmond when he said he used TWC successfully in sparring/fighting and asked him to prove it by showing video.

No, I didn't. I've never asked anyone for videos not already on Youtube. The only time I've asked for video, was to have certain things pointed out that I was not seeing in the many fighting videos that already exist for viewing online. I don't demand videos from people.

The only proof I've asked Phil for is of his claims to having been a competitive fighter, since he uses that justification all the time to try and shut people up, but I've been unable to find any record or anything whatsoever to corroborate that... And he never answers.

I don't believe that all of your complicated and intricate LS platform drilling and switching etc. is going to be all that useful in sparring/fighting. So prove it.

I don't particularly care what you believe, but if genuinely interested, you can go check it out any time.

 

[wckf92]

LFJ, you make some good points, but again phrased in arrogant and insulting language

TBH, to me, his comments did not come across like that at all. Just my .02. Thx.

...now, carry on peeps!

 

[LFJ]

TBH, to me, his comments did not come across like that at all.

Right? They were not put across that way either. Some people just want to be offended.

Now this clear mocking tone might be considered insulting, but my feelings aren't hurt:

Oh I see now. We were naively approaching this as an open discussion and sharing ideas. Since your identity is unknown to us, we didn't realize that you were such an absolute authority and that you already had the answers. Now we've cleared that up, I'm sure KPM will thank you for straightening out his misconceptions!

The thing is, it's not about me being some authority...

It's that, if you find yourself agreeing with KPM, then you believe WC has no long-range game whatsoever, it consistently fails in sparring and fighting, and it's close-range training methods are unrealistic and won't help you in sparring or fighting either.

So, you're basically admitting that WC is entirely impractical.

What then are you doing wasting your time with non-functional WC??
Why are you not just doing Western Boxing?

 

[wckf92]

...if you find yourself agreeing with KPM, then you believe WC has no long-range game whatsoever, it consistently fails in sparring and fighting, and it's close-range training methods are unrealistic and won't help you in sparring or fighting either. So, you're basically admitting that WC is entirely impractical.
What then are you doing wasting your time with non-functional WC?? Why are you not just doing Western Boxing?

I agree. Have been saying this to fellow Chunners for many years who only seem to know or care for the close in stuff.
Long bridge WC may look a bit "off norm" to main-stream WC/WT/VT...but it is there...for a reason...
You can't have one without the other. You can't have an outer without an inner; an up without a down; and long without a short.
Hence...from the Wuji...we have a cool sweet idea called yin - yang!!!!
At the death of 'long range'...is birthed the 'short range'

 

[geezer]

...if you find yourself agreeing with KPM, then you believe WC has no long-range game whatsoever, it consistently fails in sparring and fighting, and it's close-range training methods are unrealistic and won't help you in sparring or fighting either. So, you're basically admitting that WC is entirely impractical. What then are you doing wasting your time with non-functional WC?? Why are you not just doing Western Boxing?

I can't say if I agree with KPM as I really don't know what he believes. His explorations have taken him from TWC to Pin Sun to JKD to Alan Orr's CSL and recently back to TWC. He has also researched historical Western pugilism among other things.

I do like to be honest with myself, and often play devil's advocate. So when talking about a long-range game, I note that the VT/WT I have seen and/or trained favors infighting. While it does have some longer range tactics, the long-range "game" or strategy is typically designed to set up and bait the opponent into creating an opportunity for the VT/WC fighter to explosively move into the close range where our techniques shine.

Now different lineages of YMVT/WT teach significantly different methods for dealing with being on the outside and closing, and some prefer to work in closer than others. To use the old cliche, your milage may very. But to say that if you don't think VT/WC is best applied at longer ranges hardly implies that you should dump the system and take just up boxing ...any more than saying that because VT/WC doesn't have a sophisticated grappling and ground game is reason to dump the system and just train BJJ!

If, as I believe, VT/WC is designed as a close-range striking system what's wrong with that? Our long-rang game, indeed our entire game, is designed to bring us in close and put us into a position of greatest advantage. I would think this is something that we agree on.

 

[LFJ]

But to say that if you don't think VT/WC is best applied at longer ranges hardly implies that you should dump the system and take just up boxing

Didn't say that. It's the combination, according to KPM, of there being no long-range game, and the short-range training methods being impractical and unlikely to help you in a fight. Doesn't leave you with... anything else then, does it?

If, as I believe, VT/WC is designed as a close-range striking system what's wrong with that?

According to KPM, the training method is impractical and won't help you in a fight, so there's a lot wrong with it, if you agree with his understanding of the system.

 

[geezer]

You know what would really be great? --If we could see some more clips of what different folks think is a good VT/WC at the long range, or of moving in from long-to short range. I'd especially like to see some WSLVT demonstrating this in in manner that meets with LFJ's approval. I know he has already explained a bit about this in the past, and I grant that he writes well, but for me personally, a video would make this so much easier to comprehend.

OK, here's an example of a very basic approach to closing range by Emin.

Several times he mentions the "magnetic zone" theory. The analogy is to two magnetic balls set down near each other on a flat surface. At a long range, they are outside each others magnetic fields and don't roll towards each other. But when you move one closer, into the magnetic "zone" of the other, their magnetic attraction will cause them to suddenly snap together.

Applied to fighting, when you are outside your the range of your opponent's longest attacking technique, you are "outside his magnetic field" and not in danger, so you don't need to move. When your opponent starts to attack,he must move into the range ...into your "magnetic zone" and you snap explosively forward into him, just as he moves towards you. This is pretty much the same as the old WC/VT/WT maxim, "When your opponent moves, you move!".

 

[KPM]

It's that, if you find yourself agreeing with KPM, then you believe WC has no long-range game whatsoever, it consistently fails in sparring and fighting, and it's close-range training methods are unrealistic and won't help you in sparring or fighting either.

So, you're basically admitting that WC is entirely impractical.

What then are you doing wasting your time with non-functional WC??
Why are you not just doing Western Boxing?

Geez! Did you actually bother to even read my posts in the "Wing Chun Boxing" thread? I clearly stated there is a difference between having a strategy to move from long range into close range and having an actual "long range game." I defined pretty well what I thought a "long range game" consists of. You said that Wing Chun has a "long range game" (as opposed to a "long range strategy") and yet were never able to back that claim up.

Wing Chun fails fairly regularly in sparring/fighting. Just do your own survey of youtube clips. That's NOT to say that there are no Wing Chun people that do well in sparring. But the Wing Chun people that do well in sparring seem to be abandoning good Wing Chun biomechanics to do so. But don't believe, research it yourself on youtube. And before you say it....no, youtube is not the "be all" and "end all" authority on fighting. But given the number of Wing Chun sparring clips that ARE on youtube, you can get a pretty good feel for it. And just watch how many times they end up resorting to something that bears as much resemblance to boxing as it does to their Wing Chun structure they have spent so many hours developing.

Classical Wing Chun's in-close, involved, and complicated training in LS and CS is not realistic and all that useful against anyone other than a fellow Wing Chun guy. I've already explained why. Don't believe me? Again, just watch the numerous Wing Chun sparring clips on youtube and find one that shows any of the involved combinations of movements typically trained in LS and CS. A good rule of thumb that I learned from FMAs is that if something involves more than a 3 count to execute, then it is not likely to work in reality. I've found that to hold true in my own sparring.

And, as I already explained on the other thread, I don't believe Wing Chun is impractical at all. I believe it can bring a lot of good things to boxing just as boxing can bring a lot of good things to Wing Chun.

On the other hand, if you find yourself agreeing with LFJ, then you believe that VT training is somewhat abstract and teaches no actual applications for real fighting. All the forms are abstract and teach principles and biomechanics, but no techniques to be applied to real fighting. The drills and training are abstract and don't apply directly to real fighting. The attributes and skills learned from VT training may show up in real fighting, but evidently they are not recognizable as actual VT techniques. VT as LFJ describes it seems almost the opposite of the maxim to "Fight the way you train and train the way you fight." Everything is about training the elbow and the punch. But there only seems to be one kind of punch. VT training progresses to live sparring, but evidently no one in the entire world has posted videos of VT consistently sparring non-Wing Chun guys successfully using all of these abstract skills developed.

So my new approach, and I admit that it is not for everyone, is to take something that is known to work well in sparring/fighting world-wide (Boxing) and refine it and expand it with good Wing Chun principles and skills on the inside ranges. Take something that at baseline provides good fighting skills, and then use Wing Chun with it. LFJ's approach would be to train something on an abstract level with no direct application for many years until at some point the "big picture" can come together to produce a good fighter. Nothing wrong with that approach! But from my perspective I would say it is not as efficient.

 

[geezer]

Didn't say that. It's the combination, according to KPM, of there being no long-range game, and the short-range training methods being impractical and unlikely to help you in a fight. Doesn't leave you with... anything else then, does it?
...According to KPM, the training method is impractical and won't help you in a fight, so there's a lot wrong with it, if you agree with his understanding of the system.

Regardless of how some of his past posts may have been worded, I don't think he believes WC/VT to be inherently useless, otherwise why would he still be training it? On the other hand, he seems to me to be a questioning type always be searching for better and more effective training methods. You, by contrast seem very satisfied with the WSLVT method you train as it is.

This may reflect the relative merits and efficacy of your respective WC/VT systems. But I think it is more likely reflective of your very distinct personality types and outlook on the world. ...That's just an outside observation. I'll let KPM speak for himself!

 

[geezer]

Whoops -- I was busy writing post #138 while KPM was already posting his reply to LFJ in post #137. Makes my comment seem pretty superfluous.

 

[KPM]

From what I have seen, Alan Orr does not do the complicated combo's and transitions with the Lop Sau platform. You saw the video of how he trains it. Alan Orr also does not teach complicated multi-step techniques in Chi Sau (like the Lat Sau program that many use). You can find plenty of clips of Alan doing Chi Sau and it is all about good structure and technique using very straight-forward methods. Alan has a good eye for what is practical because he and his guys spar with it all the time.

In our training session today I showed my guys how to use two classic punches from Pin Sun Wing Chun....the Biu Choi and the Gwai Choi....off the Bong Sau but with a Boxing biomechanic and flowing directly into a Boxing combo for follow up. Worked great, and would be very unexpected angles for a boxer unfamiliar with these punches to deal with. There is a lot that Wing Chun can bring to a basic western boxing foundation. And a western boxing foundation brings to Wing Chun that ability to fight pretty well from the "git go".