Chi-Sau from lineage to lineage....

[LFJ]

I have never seen Leung Sheung system. What are the main differences?

Everything... is the main difference.

It's really bizarre. Very low sunk stance, sometimes 100/0 weight distribution, with every arm action done very low, even punches.

When explaining his DCS I was on top with fuk-sau and very slowly he left contact under my arm and was expecting me to do something, not sure what. I said I need do nothing and would just punch straight. Then he said he would allow that and receive the force with his bong-sau that was too low and when raised led my fist straight to his mouth/nose. I said right into your face? and it didn't seem to bother him... Bizarre like I said.

He then said if something goes too high for his bong he would use his other hand to inside paak. I thought we were still doing DCS, but maybe he was talking about other situations.

Then switching sides, after I did the vertical palm he asked me to start doing bong-sau for no apparent reason and I guess he was going to do something to it. I don't know. I couldn't really follow what he was trying to do.

It was all very slow motion, energy trick stuff he was trying to get me to play along with. But to do that I would be forced to keep my arm very low and chase his and bong-sau nothing for no reason. That is tearing at my heart, you know, having been trained to punch the way I have.

 

[wckf92]

Everything... is the main difference.

It's really bizarre. Very low sunk stance, sometimes 100/0 weight distribution, with every arm action done very low, even punches.

When explaining his DCS I was on top with fuk-sau and very slowly he left contact under my arm and was expecting me to do something, not sure what. I said I need do nothing and would just punch straight. Then he said he would allow that and receive the force with his bong-sau that was too low and when raised led my fist straight to his mouth/nose. I said right into your face? and it didn't seem to bother him... Bizarre like I said.

He then said if something goes too high for his bong he would use his other hand to inside paak. I thought we were still doing DCS, but maybe he was talking about other situations.

Then switching sides, after I did the vertical palm he asked me to start doing bong-sau for no apparent reason and I guess he was going to do something to it. I don't know. I couldn't really follow what he was trying to do.

It was all very slow motion, energy trick stuff he was trying to get me to play along with. But to do that I would be forced to keep my arm very low and chase his and bong-sau nothing for no reason. That is tearing at my heart, you know, having been trained to punch the way I have.

had similar experience with LS guys before. the entire time I was like 'wtf'? I can't imagine how they get functionality out of that. Oh well.

 

[wckf92]

When explaining his DCS I was on top with fuk-sau and very slowly he left contact under my arm

I think Moy Yat's line does this also... very bizarre indeed!

 

[LFJ]

I was like 'wtf'?

That was literally all that was going through my mind!

I can't imagine how they get functionality out of that. Oh well.

Right, I couldn't gather much either. He said it was just a tool, but for what I'm not sure. I think it is just fun for them to play that stuff together.

 

[wckf92]

That was literally all that was going through my mind!



Right, I couldn't gather much either. He said it was just a tool, but for what I'm not sure. I think it is just fun for them to play that stuff together.

Were his knees REALLY close together as he "clamped a goat"?

 

[LFJ]

Yup, one of the "five points".

He said when students asked YM about problems in fighting he would point at the five points written on the wall because the problem must be in one of them.

 

[geezer]

Five points? Found this. Check the "Structural Guidelines" about half way down the page:

1st Set – Siu Nim Tao

 

[Marnetmar]

Everything... is the main difference.

It's really bizarre. Very low sunk stance, sometimes 100/0 weight distribution, with every arm action done very low, even punches.

When explaining his DCS I was on top with fuk-sau and very slowly he left contact under my arm and was expecting me to do something, not sure what. I said I need do nothing and would just punch straight. Then he said he would allow that and receive the force with his bong-sau that was too low and when raised led my fist straight to his mouth/nose. I said right into your face? and it didn't seem to bother him... Bizarre like I said.

He then said if something goes too high for his bong he would use his other hand to inside paak. I thought we were still doing DCS, but maybe he was talking about other situations.

Then switching sides, after I did the vertical palm he asked me to start doing bong-sau for no apparent reason and I guess he was going to do something to it. I don't know. I couldn't really follow what he was trying to do.

It was all very slow motion, energy trick stuff he was trying to get me to play along with. But to do that I would be forced to keep my arm very low and chase his and bong-sau nothing for no reason. That is tearing at my heart, you know, having been trained to punch the way I have.

Super low stance...was it one of Kenneth Chung's people? From what I can tell he made some...err...changes since the 1970's. For a while I'd been wondering why the hell this set is so much different from ours.

I don't doubt Ken himself is still very good but after doing some digging I'm 99% sure he's not teaching the original system and I don't think his students even spar anymore.

I think it's fair to say that Ng Wah Sum's and Eddie Chong's early (hell, even present) stuff is more representative of what Leung Sheung actually taught than whatever Ken teaches now. Ng Wah Sum learned from LS and Eddie learned from Ken, and from what I can tell, Ng Wah Sum and Eddie are far more similar to each other than Eddie is (presumably) to Ken, and that's taking Eddie's blending of Pan Nam and Bak Mei into his LS stuff into account.

Were his knees REALLY close together as he "clamped a goat"?

If it was one of Ken's people, most likely.

 

[Phobius]

Super low stance...was it one of Kenneth Chung's people? From what I can tell he made some...err...changes since the 1970's. For a while I'd been wondering why the hell this set is so much different from ours.

Did you ever come up with any idea why it differs to such an extent? And it even sounds like it can be dangerous to your limbs in the long run.

 

[Marnetmar]

Did you ever come up with any idea why it differs to such an extent? And it even sounds like it can be dangerous to your limbs in the long run.

No clue, really. My best guess is that it had something to do with when he went back to Leung Sheung in the mid-70's and during that time something happened that inspired Ken to take a softer, less combative route.

Early period:

Ken was emphasizing more on the "take no hostage" type of Wing Chun. We had a very aggressive style with main focus on speed and power. Ken loved working with the big guys as he could shuffle them around like a bowling pin. As I recall, everyone in class always had cut lips because we seldom held back on punches. One question most often asked was "Ken, why don’t you open a real school to make Wing Chun famous?"

1980's:

Ken left US in mid 1970’s and returned back to Hong Kong. He continued to study under Master Leung Sheung and did not start teaching in US again until 1982. I noticed a considerable difference in his style when I rejoined in 1983. Even though the forms were the same as before, Ken was a lot more softer. He emphasized more on intention and position, rather than speed and power. However, his power was a lot more subtle and deep. Instead of focusing on striking, our goal now is to control the opponent and listen to his energy. Only with this approach, one can truly find the right path to Wing Chun. Anybody can claim he/she knows Wing Chun by learning the forms or doing Chi-Sau. The true artist is one who can intercept the opponent energy and capitalize on it. I have returned to Hong Kong several times and worked out at a number of Wing Chun schools. To date, I have yet found anyone that could match Ken’s ability to absorb/divert the opponent energy.

Source

Since then he's had some contact with some of the Chen family, and while I don't think he ever learned Tai Chi, I think he borrowed some of their thinking for his WC.

As for the stance, I think LS was known for emphasizing Kim Sut but Ken's the only one who really passed it on. From what I know, I don't think it would damage your knees since it's more to do with your knees coming forward naturally with the direction of the toes rather than literally clamping, but don't quote me on that since it's not really something we do to that extent.

Now, doing it like THIS on the other hand will probably kill your knees:

 

[dudewingchun]

No clue, really. My best guess is that it had something to do with when he went back to Leung Sheung in the mid-70's and during that time something happened that inspired Ken to take a softer, less combative route.

Early period:



1980's:



Source

Since then he's had some contact with some of the Chen family, and while I don't think he ever learned Tai Chi, I think he borrowed some of their thinking for his WC.

As for the stance, I think LS was known for emphasizing Kim Sut but Ken's the only one who really passed it on. From what I know, I don't think it would damage your knees since it's more to do with your knees coming forward naturally with the direction of the toes rather than literally clamping, but don't quote me on that since it's not really something we do to that extent.

Now, doing it like THIS on the other hand will probably kill your knees:

A bit unrelated. Does anyone have any background knowledge of the 'Sifu" in that picture. Goes under the name Yun hoi or Zopa gyatso. Iv seen people say he is not a student of Sum Nung at all, but if you go check his page he very clearly promotes Sum Nung and Yuen kay san. It also has a very anti Ip man vibe to it.

 

[wckf92]

A bit unrelated. Does anyone have any background knowledge of the 'Sifu" in that picture. Goes under the name Yun hoi or Zopa gyatso. Iv seen people say he is not a student of Sum Nung at all, but if you go check his page he very clearly promotes Sum Nung and Yuen kay san. It also has a very anti Ip man vibe to it.

Perhaps a topic for another thread(?)...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Now, doing it like THIS on the other hand will probably kill your knees:

If you use your right foot to step behind his right knee joint, that will really kill his knee.

 

[geezer]

If you use your right foot to step behind his right knee joint, that will really kill his knee.

...or you just hang back and encourage him so that he kills his own knees while you watch!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you stand like this, any wrestler with just 1 month of training will be able to take you down by "double legs". Your knees are just "too close to each other".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

...or you just hang back and encourage him so that he kills his own knees while you watch!

Agree! That picture violate a very basic CMA principle and that is "never move your knee to pass your toe".

 

[Marnetmar]

It also has a very anti Ip man vibe to it.

I'm going to start calling this "Wing Chun Hipsterism".

Agree! That picture violate a very basic CMA principle and that is "never move your knee to pass your toe".

I've never heard of this but it makes sense, what's the origin? And does it entail having the knee passing over *on top of* the toe or just moving past the toe horizontally like the guy in the picture?

 

[dudewingchun]

Having knees and hips locked is no good for real life fighting imo . We start in a neutral 50/50 stance but we also adjust it according to the pressure we are receiving during combat/training/ sparring or whatever. I see a lot of lineages focus on if its 50/50 20/80 0/100 etc as if that means you are always in that weight distribution no matter what is happening or changing during a fight

 

[Marnetmar]

The idea of having to "lock" into a fixed position at all times is frankly ludicrous. Sure, there are some basic points of structure that need to be followed for WC's particular toolset to work in the first place, but an idea behind WC is that a tool can turn into another tool, and then another, and then another, on the spot. You can't do that if you've locked into a pre-determined position.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've never heard of this but it makes sense, what's the origin?

It's emphasized in CMA styles such as Taiji, long fist, Baji, praying mantis, ...

When your knee move outside of your "base", you will put extra pressure on your knee which is not good. If your knee move to the side of your foot, that can be even worse.