cutting punch

[Gerry Seymour]

Others within the same system may not use biu sau to teach a punching idea because to do so would be nonsensical. I guess they could go insane and do it, or fail to understand the system and do it, but that's about all. Certainly no value in it.

Or, they may simply have an idea you don't. It might be better, worse, or just different. You don't get to say whether someone finds a value in using that to teach a concept different than what you've seen it used for.

 

[wtxs]

And the arm doesn't work that way. If your arm is bent with the elbow down, and you extend it anywhere except straight down, the elbow will move upward from the horizontal plane it started on.

If I punch forward, the elbow moves forward and stays down.

Since you are so adamant about VT elbow do not rise, that leave you only with the horizontal punch? Because "punch forward" can have multiple up & down angles, so does that mean the elbow will have to raise with all other types of punch?

 

[Nobody Important]

Nobody Important said his punch has a "vertical fist to align radius and ulna" and then that biu-sau would be the exact same thing... but biu-sau is palm down, which would be a horizontal fist. So, he seems a bit confused.

The inner gate punch uses the same principle as Biu Sau. Gate punching isn't about a particular technique its a concept. If you perform the action correctly the elbow doesn't move much from vertical fist to Biu, the action is mostly wrist. Alignment of radius & ulna is about impact strength. Of course I would'nt expect a novice to know such things.

 

[wtxs]

The inner gate punch uses the same principle as Biu Sau. Gate punching isn't about a particular technique its a concept. If you perform the action correctly the elbow doesn't move much from vertical fist to Biu, the action is mostly wrist. Alignment of radius & ulna is about impact strength. Of course I would'nt expect a novice to know such things.

Because grasshopper is concentrating only on the finger which is pointing to the moon ... totally missed the heavenly glory.

 

[Nobody Important]

I think that people copying WSL's public videos is a big part of the problem. He was careful to guard the method.

That video for example contains a couple of glaring errors. You will not see these in a 1 to 1 situation. That you don't recognise them explains a lot of your anger and frustration, and your inability when it comes to making the system work



The elbow doesn't rise in the relevant parts of that clip. I guess you are looking in the wrong place?

Ah, the ever so convenient, "It contains intentional errors" card. Played everytime you two get backed into a corner by your own lies.

 

[Juany118]

Ah, the ever so convenient, "It contains intentional errors" card. Played everytime you two get backed into a corner by your own lies.

It's actually entirely possible that they aren't lying. They could be doing exactly what PB teaches. Here is the thing though. In PB's biography it specifically states that WSL worked hard with PB to modify VT to work with the fact he was missing a hand. The last time I checked people can only teach what they themselves actually learned and/or practiced. This could very easily explain more than a couple of the differences with WSLPB-VT and even other WSL students let alone YM VT Lineages in general.

Before the usual suspects hissy fit that I am somehow lying....
Philipp Bayer

After visits with various teachers, he found, in January 1983, Wong Shun Leung. Sifu Wong accepted the ambitious German than students in the traditional sense. He sat down seriously dealing with the problem of a missing hand and put the training in terms of it.

Now regardless I am sure there will be some rage thing because... well we know that even though this doesn't say WSLPB-VT is bad, that others are better etc. there will still be a nonsensical negative reaction.



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[anerlich]

You get to about page 6 of every thread and they all look the same. Just as well I joined this forum to argue over semantics and minutae.

 

[guy b]

There is no rise of the elbow. The entire arm is projected to the high level (head). Forward pressure, wrist at highest point shoulder lowest on line of attack. All 3 joints move in unison & do not wander (flare) from line of attack. No sinking, no rising, bobbing or weaving. Angle of arm & a simple pivot away from incoming force creates the wedge that drives his arm upward.

This bears no relation to VT. I am confused in the extreme as to how people apparently doing 'wing chun' don't see a problem here. Puzzling.

 

[Nobody Important]

This bears no relation to VT. I am confused in the extreme as to how people apparently doing 'wing chun' don't see a problem here. Puzzling.

Because you don't understand would be my guess.

 

[Nobody Important]

It's actually entirely possible that they aren't lying. They could be doing exactly what PB teaches. Here is the thing though. In PB's biography it specifically states that WSL worked hard with PB to modify VT to work with the fact he was missing a hand. The last time I checked people can only teach what they themselves actually learned and/or practiced. This could very easily explain more than a couple of the differences with WSLPB-VT and even other WSL students let alone YM VT Lineages in general.

Before the usual suspects hissy fit that I am somehow lying....
Philipp Bayer



Now regardless I am sure there will be some rage thing because... well we know that even though this doesn't say WSLPB-VT is bad, that others are better etc. there will still be a nonsensical negative reaction.



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No, that's not it. It the argument that it is physically impossible for the elbow not to come up when the arm is extended. It is not humanly possible to extend the arm & have the elbow remain. They insinuate it is. They are wrong, end of discussion.

 

[Juany118]

Because you don't undetstand would be my guess.

Maybe the fact is missed that if you are average height striking someone in the face of similar height, your wrist will be higher than the shoulder, because well the head is higher than the shoulder, is somehow missed? Either that or he doesn't think WC takes head shots. /Shrug.

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[Steve]

I just want to thank you guys (KPM, LFJ, Guy B. and Nobody Important) for this thread. It has a slightly subversive feel to it, kind of feels a little like watching quadruplets argue publicly. Literally any post could have been made by any one of the four of you and no one outside the quadrangle could tell the difference. It's fun... like watching Jackass, where you know it's painful for you guys, but the schadenfreude is unmistakably gratifying.

 

[Steve]

No, that's not it. It the argument that it is physically impossible for the elbow not to come up when the arm is extended. It is not humanly possible to extend the arm & have the elbow remain. They insinuate it is. They are wrong, end of discussion.

For what it's worth, I just extended my arm and my elbow didn't come up. My wrist went down instead. I don't know jack about punching in WC/VT/VC/WT but your elbow will only rise if your wrist stays on a level plane.

 

[Nobody Important]

Maybe the fact is missed that if you are average height striking someone in the face of similar height, your wrist will be higher than the shoulder, because well the head is higher than the shoulder, is somehow missed? Either that or he doesn't think WC takes head shots. /Shrug.

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Correct, elbow as well depending on pitch from shoulder to opponents head. Doesn't matter if you punch up or down. To use urban slang, the wagina of the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm. It's a hinge joint. Unless their elbow is opposite of every other human, it's impossible for it to remain.

At high level it will be wrist at highest point and shoulder at lowest. At mid let all three will be same height and at low level shoulder will be highest and wrist at lowest.

 

[Nobody Important]

For what it's worth, I just extended my arm and my elbow didn't come up. My wrist went down instead. I don't know jack about punching in WC/VT/VC/WT but your elbow will only rise if your wrist stays on a level plane.

Please post a quick video and I'll prove you wrong.

 

[Juany118]

No, that's not it. It the argument that it is physically impossible for the elbow not to come up when the arm is extended. It is not humanly possible to extend the arm & have the elbow remain. They insinuate it is. They are wrong, end of discussion.

Oh I wasn't realizing that was their argument. So they are actually saying that WSLPB-VT violates basic biomechanical realities such as the elbow moving both vertically and horizontally if you extend your arm in front of you?

 

[Nobody Important]

Oh I wasn't realizing that was their argument. So they are actually saying that WSLPB-VT violates basic biomechanical realities such as the elbow moving both vertically and horizontally if you extend your arm in front of you?

Apparently

 

[Juany118]

For what it's worth, I just extended my arm and my elbow didn't come up. My wrist went down instead. I don't know jack about punching in WC/VT/VC/WT but your elbow will only rise if your wrist stays on a level plane.

Look at the following picture

If WSL was to punch straight ahead with either arm his elbow would have to rise. WC punches with elbow oriented down. So when you punch, by its nature as a joint, it will rise vertically. Depending on hand position the wrist my indeed drop, but the nature of the hinge joint that is the elbow means it will either move up (if oriented down) or in if oriented to the outside, when a straight punch is thrown.

 

[Cephalopod]

I think understand what you guys are trying to say:

The elbow moves in an arc around the shoulder, regardless of what the forearm is doing. There's only one bone connecting the two, no joints.
Therefore as the elbow moves forward away from the body it will invariable rise with respect to the shoulder.

However...
If I did want my elbow to travel forward along horizontal plane in space, I could achieve this by shrugging my shoulder downward or sinking at the knees.

For myself, I prefer to use the idea of a sunken elbow as a visualization method to get the desired tracking and force than as a literal spacial exactitude.

 

[guy b]

Correct, elbow as well depending on pitch from shoulder to opponents head. Doesn't matter if you punch up or down. To use urban slang, the wagina of the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm. It's a hinge joint. Unless their elbow is opposite of every other human, it's impossible for it to remain.

At high level it will be wrist at highest point and shoulder at lowest. At mid let all three will be same height and at low level shoulder will be highest and wrist at lowest.

Okay, you don't do wing chun. I get it. But good trolling, I believed it for a while