Does WSLVT exist?

[Phobius]

Yes, refer above

Oh, sorry. Weird enough that text was not seen when I read it. But now it is present in my quote.

Anyways I can not argue against what you said if you say it is not impervious but resistant. As for claims that others have changed it for personal reasons, I would not know. My involvement with WSLVT is still null. Just because I have found a club that study it does not mean I tried it yet.

 

[Juany118]

I don't think that is true for VT, provided everything is understood correctly and gaps are not filled with other ideas. VT is an error correcting system used to perfe ct a particular approach to fighting. It is conceptually coherent and resitant to change because change breaks it.



VTisn't taught on a technique basis and can accomodate personal expression without becoming changed.

The two bolded portions appear inherently contradictory. Can you clarify?

VT is quite specific about strategy and there isn't a lot of room to change it without changing the system.

Other Lineages of Wing Chun (please refer back to my link above regarding just how many existed before YM started learning WC), or even individual Sifus within the same lineage can be different yet equally firm about strateg. That is actually to part of my core point. A strategy ultimately is simply a detailed expression of how one should use the physical techniques. You can have Sifus under the same lineage having their own take on what they see as the best strategy. Strategies are often born of the personality of the practitioner, non-Martial Art case in point Omar Bradley vs George Patton. The same principles effect the martial artist from Student to Sifu.

 

[guy b.]

Oh, sorry. Weird enough that text was not seen when I read it. But now it is present in my quote.

Anyways I can not argue against what you said if you say it is not impervious but resistant. As for claims that others have changed it for personal reasons, I would not know. My involvement with WSLVT is still null. Just because I have found a club that study it does not mean I tried it yet.

Who is the teacher at the club you found?

 

[guy b.]

The two bolded portions appear inherently contradictory. Can you clarify?

Differences in personal expression due to physical difference can be accomodated within the working of the system, the conceptual base, the strategy.

 

[guy b.]

Other Lineages of Wing Chun (please refer back to my link above regarding just how many existed before YM started learning WC), or even individual Sifus within the same lineage can be different yet equally firm about strateg

I am only interested in YM VT. I have no interest in other systems.

You can have Sifus under the same lineage having their own take on what they see as the best strategy.

Not in VT

Strategies are often born of the personality of the practitioner, non-Martial Art case in point Omar Bradley vs George Patton. The same principles effect the martial artist from Student to Sifu.

Not in VT

 

[Juany118]

Differences in personal expression due to physical difference can be accomodated within the working of the system, the conceptual base, the strategy.

And my point is that this is the same with all of WC, VT is not unique in this manner. You seem to be trying to create an argument where somehow VT is special, it isn't. If it was then the link I showed you of all the different Lineages, it would NOT exist.

 

[Juany118]

I am only interested in YM VT. I have no interest in other systems.

Which is odd because VT is not a term coined by YM, it is a term most associated with one of his students, who had his own ideas about WC. So technically YM is perhaps the grand father of VT. I don't know about you but I am the direct product of my father. If I would be asked to name myself if an old English way I would say "Juany son of Juany" not "Juany of Leslie".

Not in VT

According to your definition of VT. You have gone to some lengths to try and explain away how people have shown different ideas even within VT

Not in VT

So what you are saying is that VT is first, somehow divorced from the human condition and second, is actually not suited to reality because having been involved in combat of one form or another for closing in on 30 years now there is one thing I have learned, if you do not have an open mind when it comes to strategy, if there is only one way, then you will be defeated because the core of strategy is adaptation. There are only so many ways you can shoot a gun, or punch someone BUT how when, where and why? These must be open to adaptation or you die.

 

[guy b.]

And my point is that this is the same with all of WC, VT is not unique in this manner. You seem to be trying to create an argument where somehow VT is special, it isn't. If it was then the link I showed you of all the different Lineages, it would NOT exist.

Your point was that personal preferences change the system. Mine was that this is not the case in VT. If you are now agreeing then great.

VT is certainly special compared to other wing chun systems I have seen. But then I haven't seen them all, so maybe there are some other great systems out there. Personally I am only interested in VT. VT does not have different lineages based on personal ideas and preferences. There is only VT.

 

[Juany118]

Your point was that personal preferences change the system. Mine was that this is not the case in VT. If you are now agreeing then great.

VT is certainly special compared to other wing chun sysunderstood"e seen. But then I haven't seen them all, so maybe there are some other great systems out there. Personally I am only interested in VT. VT does not have different lineages based on personal ideas and preferences. There is only VT.

Sorry but having room for personal expression and yet being static... These are mutually exclusive concepts, unless A. It's a bunch of marketing spin or B. The actual foundation is so opaque as to be unintelligible. I suspect a combination of both, otherwise you would not have had the need to say this earlier...

"Some with incomplete understanding have indeed changed it, but in that case it is not functioning properly anyway, and gaps need filled.

It isn't impervious to change and people can do what they like with it. But it is resistant if fully understood"

Sorry this amounts to "my teacher said this, those who say otherwise are wrong... But let me hedge my bet, just in case"

You bounce all over the place... Basically you appear to have an image of VT in your mind but your argument to defend this vision is far from coherent, you simply answer from the hip with the first thing that comes to mind to the argument immediately in front of you. Then when a new question is raised, on reflex, you respond again even if the latest response stretches the definition of the term "logical consistency"

Please note I am not challenging VT, I just have issue with the inconsistent argument you seem to have regarding a rather dogmatic approach which by your own admission format even exist universally in VT, otherwise you wouldn't have needed to throw out the "incomplete understanding" trope.

 

[geezer]

Sorry this amounts to "my teacher said this, those who say otherwise are wrong...

You bounce all over the place... Basically you appear to have an image of VT in your mind but your argument to defend this vision is far from coherent, you simply answer from the hip with the first thing that comes to mind to the argument immediately in front of you.

...I just have issue with the inconsistent argument you seem to have regarding a rather dogmatic approach which by your own admission format even exist universally in VT, otherwise you wouldn't have needed to throw out the "incomplete understanding" trope.

You've made some good points Juany, and I for one will acknowledge them. Don't expect the same from our two WSL-PB-VT followers. It simply won't happen.

Juany, as you are pretty new to this forum, you are just now coming to realize what became obvious to more seasoned forum members a long time ago. Guy's position on WSL VT defies all logic. Like a lot of people who manifest this "true-believer" syndrome (to borrow KPM's term), Guy is seemingly intelligent and expresses himself well with the written word. He may also be a good martial artist. But his stubborn and, IMO, absolutely irrational insistence on the unique, superior, and unchanging nature of WSL-VT makes it impossible tho have a meaningful two-way discussion with him.

Of course you are welcome to try to engage with him, but be prepared for continued frustration and disappointment as he draws you in and then summarily dismisses all of your valid observations. On the other hand, you could do as many of the rest of us do and sit back, read his over-the-top and totally unsupportable statements, and have a quiet chuckle before moving on. Good luck!

 

[KPM]

^^^^^^ Just as WTChap is discovering right now on another thread on this forum!

 

[guy b.]

Which is odd because VT is not a term coined by YM, it is a term most associated with one of his students, who had his own ideas about WC. So technically YM is perhaps the grand father of VT. I don't know about you but I am the direct product of my father. If I would be asked to name myself if an old English way I would say "Juany son of Juany" not "Juany of Leslie".

WSL taught the VT of YM

According to your definition of VT. You have gone to some lengths to try and explain away how people have shown different ideas even within VT

They haven't

If you do not have an open mind when it comes to strategy, if there is only one way, then you will be defeated because the core of strategy is adaptation. There are only so many ways you can shoot a gun, or punch someone BUT how when, where and why? These must be open to adaptation or you die.

If you don't like the strategy of VT, then don't do VT. If you don't like the strategy of BJJ, then don't do BJJ, etc. If you are unsuited to MA systems then do your own thing, up to you.

 

[guy b.]

Sorry but having room for personal expression and yet being static... These are mutually exclusive concepts, unless A. It's a bunch of marketing spin or B

Personal expression is possible without changing the system. Not mutually exclusive

 

[Juany118]

You've made some good points Juany, and I for one will acknowledge them. Don't expect the same from our two WSL-PB-VT followers. It simply won't happen.

Juany, as you are pretty new to this forum, you are just now coming to realize what became obvious to more seasoned forum members a long time ago. Guy's position on WSL VT defies all logic. Like a lot of people who manifest this "true-believer" syndrome (to borrow KPM's term), Guy is seemingly intelligent and expresses himself well with the written word. He may also be a good martial artist. But his stubborn and, IMO, absolutely irrational insistence on the unique, superior, and unchanging nature of WSL-VT makes it impossible tho have a meaningful two-way discussion with him.

Of course you are welcome to try to engage with him, but be prepared for continued frustration and disappointment as he draws you in and then summarily dismisses all of your valid observations. On the other hand, you could do as many of the rest of us do and sit back, read his over-the-top and totally unsupportable statements, and have a quiet chuckle before moving on. Good luck!

Geezer, yeah. I became suspicious with the "are you Buddhist?" question. That seemed to be looking for a gotcha moment. I say that because one can study and understand another culture, even a philosophy or religion without "living it" or even agreeing it. If this wasn't true entire fields of academic study, Anthropology, Asian, African, Middle Eastern Studies, various Religious studies etc., would never have existed.

As you said though, I am "the new guy" and as such I usually try to take a wait and see approach. From here on out I think will take the advice you closed with . Cheers!

 

[guy b.]

his stubborn and, IMO, absolutely irrational insistence on the unique, superior, and unchanging nature of WSL-VT makes it impossible tho have a meaningful two-way discussion with him

The most important thing for new members of this forum to understand is that they must be prepared to acknowledge the equal validity of every approach to be accepted here. If they discriminate (as in choose, prioritise) in any sense then they will be attacked. One of the most important rules for any new member is they must constantly reference their own subjective opinion in anything they say, and never generalise in terms of absolute truth or falsehood.

 

[Nobody Important]

The most important thing for new members of this forum to understand is that they must be prepared to acknowledge the equal validity of every approach to be accepted here. If they discriminate (as in choose, prioritise) in any sense then they will be attacked. One of the most important rules for any new member is they must constantly reference their own subjective opinion in anything they say, and never generalise in terms of absolute truth or falsehood.

Really? This is exactly the opposite of what you do hypocrite, lol.

 

[guy b.]

Really? This is exactly the opposite of what you do hypocrite, lol.

Of course it is; I don't agree with this forum rule. Just letting new members know what it is.

I think you logged in with the wrong account btw

 

[Nobody Important]

Of course it is; I don't agree with this forum rule. Just letting new members know what it is.

I think you logged in with the wrong account btw

Huh? This is my only account. Is there a Secret one I'm not privy to? Lol!

 

[KPM]

I think you logged in with the wrong account btw

Hah! First you thought I was "SaulGoodman", now you probably think I'm "Nobody Important"?? Did it ever occur to you that I'm not the only one that thinks so little of your posting style and methods of discussion here?

No. The important thing for new people here to realize is this.....this forum is moderated. However, we don't have a moderator that is specific for the Wing Chun subforum. This seems to mean that the moderators are not reading for content, but just scanning for "bad words." Therefore it is acceptable for someone to behave like a "pompous a55" in their posts, but the minute you point out that they are behaving like a "pompous a55" you are going to get a private and personal warning from the moderator!

 

[geezer]

Hah! ...now you probably think I'm "Nobody Important"??

Actually, until "Nobody" joined our forum, I was sure that I was nobody important (N.I.). In fact most of us could probably qualify for that name. Unless, you qualify for the other title of "pompous a55" (P.A.). Currently team N.I. soundly outnumbers team P.A. ....unless you are counting posts. Team P.A. have been really working their pompous butts off lately ...as have I (trying my best to speak up for all of us who are nobody important).

So where have you been lately KPM. Off doing actual martial arts training or sparring? Enough of that already. Get back to posting. My fingers are cramping up from too much time at the keyboard. I need some help!

...it is acceptable for someone to behave like a "pompous a55" in their posts, but the minute you point out that they are behaving like a "pompous a55" you are going to get a private and personal warning from the moderator!

No need to point out who's being a P.A. ...it's usually pretty damn obvious. Just let it go at that!