cutting punch

[Juany118]

At 0:17 - :019 elbow stays down ... rise as the right goes up and forward.

Elbow rise and elbow stays down = apple and oranges = debate of dissimilar ideas.

I initially felt this at first. Do they think we are saying the elbow doesnt remain oriented down? Do they think we are somehow not focusing on the idea that you picture the elbow as moving "forward" when we punch and instead picture it rising?

The thing is a few times it was clarified, the elbow remains oriented down as it moves forward and the rising isn't a change in orientation, rather a movement through space that is only a consequence of the nature of the joint. So with that clarification made insisting the elbow stays down and doesn't rise makes little sense, but admittedly I can be anal retentive when focusing on little details.

 

[wtxs]

Same as WSL and YM.

Look at the image NI made. Is his elbow down? Yes. Is it only a fist away from his body? No.

Is his elbow down? Yes. Is his elbow raised from its original position? Yes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You're killing me. Negative forward vectors?

Physics geek.

I've been following this feud for a while, and have enjoyed the back and forth bickering. Both sides have demonstrated a remarkable degree of stamina. I'm a generally curious guy, so I like reading the threads, and while some of these get so technical I can't follow the specifics, the arguments make it worthwhile. It's like watching a telenovella in Spanish. I don't speak Spanish, but I still enjoy watching the show.

I can understand that.

It's not what I would call a partial punching motion. I mean, my arm can get very close to fully extended. The elbow isn't locked out, but it's within a few degrees. 3 fist lengths is hyperbolic. I'll leave the rest to the experts. All I can say with any confidence is that it feels like a punching motion when I slide my elbow along the table.

Hmm, I'm picturing something different, then. If your arm starts at any angle, and you extend the fist forward, unless you drop the shoulder (either on its own or by lowering the entire body) while moving the fist, the elbow must rise. That's the mechanics of the rotation. From 90 degrees, I can get about 3 fist-lengths forward (the forward vector exceeds the upward vector). From 45 degrees, even less (the forward vector is exceeded by the upward vector beyond that point). Mind you, I'm trying to keep the elbow exactly in contact with the surface, so as soon as I feel it coming away from the surface I call it done. The only way I can go from any significant angle to any significant extension is if I start with my elbow higher than normal (shoulder shoved up by the supporting surface).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then stop trolling.



It is the full arm action of the punch.



The experiment was face level, if you read it. Over-extension is out of range for VT punching.

You do realize that by "the other side", Steve wasn't referring to you, right? And so, neither was I. I was referring to the side besides that with which I was carrying on my conversation. I've read all of yours, and they're getting amusing.

 

[wtxs]

I initially felt this at first. Do they think we are saying the elbow doesnt remain oriented down? Do they think we are somehow not focusing on the idea that you picture the elbow as moving "forward" when we punch and instead picture it rising?

The thing is a few times it was clarified, the elbow remains oriented down as it moves forward and the rising isn't a change in orientation, rather a movement through space that is only a consequence of the nature of the joint. So with that clarification made insisting the elbow stays down and doesn't rise makes little sense, but admittedly I can be anal retentive when focusing on little details.

I feel you pain man

 

[LFJ]

Is his elbow down? Yes. Is his elbow raised from its original position? Yes.

Did I ever argue otherwise? No.

At 0:17 - :019 elbow stays down ... rise as the right goes up and forward.

Elbow rise and elbow stays down = apple and oranges = debate of dissimilar ideas.

The elbow never rises above shoulder level, nor does it rise to close the triangle between the shoulder, fist, and elbow (full extension, popping elbow up).

This is what I have been comparing the entire thread long. Doing this, versus raising the elbow above shoulder level, or allowing it to rise to close the triangle, as NI described for his basic punch.

It doesn't matter to what level we punch, the elbow stays down. Not just oriented downward, down in relation to the shoulder and fist. It does not rise from the low position of the triangle.

What you guys are arguing against is a very stupid strawman about the elbow not ascending with the triangle.

Some of you have argued that the elbow cannot remain on the same horizontal plane while the arm is extended in a punch. That is demonstrably false and proven by the experiment I presented.

Does that mean the elbow will never ascend? No! But even as it ascends, the triangle is maintained. The elbow does not rise (in relation to the triangle or above shoulder level).

Please tell me you all can put your braincells together and understand this time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In VT the elbow does not rise

Simply not mechanically possible with an arm. Show me a single video of an actual punch where the elbow stays on the same horizontal plane, without it being winged out to the side, without it being a false punch (no arm movement involved at all), and without it being a downward punch.

If I punch forward, the elbow moves forward and stays down.

This was a progression. Since I was addressing the statement by Guy that the elbow doesn't rise from the original horizontal plane (not the same thing as your current assertion that it remains pointing down), why did you feel the need to jump in and attempt to correct me if that wasn't your assertion, as well?

 

[wtxs]

Does that mean the elbow will never ascend? No! But even as it ascends, the triangle is maintained. The elbow does not rise (in relation to the triangle or above shoulder level).

Does this mean you conceded?

 

[LFJ]

If your arm starts at any angle, and you extend the fist forward, unless you drop the shoulder (either on its own or by lowering the entire body) while moving the fist, the elbow must rise.

That will happen if you lead with the wrist. Keep the mind back in the elbow and drive the punch.

You act as if keeping the shoulder down is somehow disqualifying. Why? You are applying arbitrary rules to a punch you haven't learned?

My shoulder doesn't drop. I just extend the punch, driving from the elbow, and I get all the extension needed in a VT punch for the range at which I'll be throwing or landing it. It is a significant extension. Enough to put a lot of power into it when it's got momentum and body mass behind it.

 

[Juany118]

This was a progression. Since I was addressing the statement by Guy that the elbow doesn't rise from the original horizontal plane (not the same thing as your current assertion that it remains pointing down), why did you feel the need to jump in and attempt to correct me if that wasn't your assertion, as well?

That wasn't just your issue it was the issue everyone had, so in essence an argument for how many pages where suddenly the assertion isn't made? Yet when I mentioned a specific experiment to illustrate the point it was derided as "rockem sockem?". Photos with lines illustrating the rise of the elbow in physical space denigrated?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[LFJ]

I was addressing the statement by Guy that the elbow doesn't rise from the original horizontal plane

He never made that claim.

He and I both know how the VT punch works. We were always talking about the same thing. Not rising means not going above shoulder level, and not rising from the low position of the triangle.

It can remain on the same horizontal plane, or ascend with the triangle, but not rise in relation to it, closing the triangle or going above the shoulder.

Does this mean you conceded?

Conceded what? I have never held the position of your strawman. Please quote where you think I have.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That will happen if you lead with the wrist. Keep the mind back in the elbow and drive the punch.

You act as if keeping the shoulder down is somehow disqualifying. Why? You are applying arbitrary rules to a punch you haven't learned?

My shoulder doesn't drop. I just extend the punch, driving from the elbow, and I get all the extension needed in a VT punch for the range at which I'll be throwing or landing it. It is a significant extension. Enough to put a lot of power into it when it's got momentum and body mass behind it.

That will happen if the hand moves forward. I'm not sure what you mean by "lead with the wrist". From a physical standpoint, the wrist comes slightly behind the hand in a punch, so I tend to lead with the knuckles that will strike. I didn't say anything about "keeping the shoulder down". I referred to dropping the shoulder further down during the punch. For a full-range punch (a foot or two) it would require a huge drop of the shoulder (many inches). Again, if you are just saying the elbow doesn't rise much, that's a different statement than the one you stepped in to defend. If you are claiming you can actually punch more than 5-6 inches or at anything above rib height, I'd need to see a video to know what you're talking about. I've asked for one to support the discussion in this same thread, and received not even a response.

Now, if you're combining a relatively short punch, dropping the shoulder, punching low, and a movement of the body, that's a lot of movement and compensation to avoid an elbow movement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He never made that claim.

He and I both know how the VT punch works. We were always talking about the same thing. Not rising means not going above shoulder level, and not rising from the low position of the triangle.

It can remain on the same horizontal plane, or ascend with the triangle, but not rise in relation to it, closing the triangle or going above the shoulder.

So, when I was talking about the fact that it will change horizontal planes, why were both you and he arguing with me? I was clearly NOT talking about the elbow mechanically needing to come above the elbow. None of the arguments about mechanics could possibly have meant that it's impossible to punch without the elbow rising above the shoulder (except for extremes, like a near-full extension on a punch to someone much taller). Yet, you both continued to assert that the statements made weren't consistent with your punch.

Clearly, you were either arguing that the elbow doesn't rise, at all, or you didn't understand the arguments being made. I don't see a third option, given your adamant statements attempting to contradict explanations of the hinging of the arm.

 

[LFJ]

I'm not sure what you mean by "lead with the wrist".

It means mind forward at the wrist/fist, leading the elbow to follow.

The mind should be back at the elbow, driving the fist forward.

I referred to dropping the shoulder further down during the punch. For a full-range punch (a foot or two) it would require a huge drop of the shoulder (many inches). Again, if you are just saying the elbow doesn't rise much, that's a different statement than the one you stepped in to defend. If you are claiming you can actually punch more than 5-6 inches or at anything above rib height, I'd need to see a video to know what you're talking about. I've asked for one to support the discussion in this same thread, and received not even a response.

Now, if you're combining a relatively short punch, dropping the shoulder, punching low, and a movement of the body, that's a lot of movement and compensation to avoid an elbow movement.

I don't know how you're screwing it up that badly then.

Fist is face height, shoulder doesn't drop, especially not "many inches", elbow extends a good 20cm for me. It doesn't require any special movement or anything. Just slide your arm out, driving from the elbow.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It means mind forward at the wrist/fist, leading the elbow to follow.

The mind should be back at the elbow, driving the fist forward.

That's an interesting concept. I'd love to chat about that sometime. A different approach to the principles of punching. Physically, I don't see any difference in it, but it reflects a different conceptual approach.

Fist is face height, shoulder doesn't drop, especially not "many inches", elbow extends a good 20cm for me. It doesn't require any special movement or anything. Just slide your arm out, driving from the elbow.

If you do that, the elbow will rise a bit if the fist is further from the shoulder than it started. It's geometry.

 

[LFJ]

So, when I was talking about the fact that it will change horizontal planes, why were both you and he arguing with me?

Because the VT punch can be executed perfectly fine without the elbow ascending from the original horizontal plane, as demonstrated in the experiment. The elbow can ascend with the triangle if targeting higher, but doesn't pop up or exceed shoulder level.

None of the arguments about mechanics could possibly have meant that it's impossible to punch without the elbow rising above the shoulder (except for extremes, like a near-full extension on a punch to someone much taller). Yet, you both continued to assert that the statements made weren't consistent with your punch.

Shoulder being the lowest point along a line of attack was a description NI gave of his basic punch way back on page 3 or so.

I don't know when all of you decided to start attacking a stupid strawman.

 

[LFJ]

That's an interesting concept. I'd love to chat about that sometime. A different approach to the principles of punching. Physically, I don't see any difference in it, but it reflects a different conceptual approach.

It's subtle, but has major consequences on overall strategy and tactics.

If you do that, the elbow will rise a bit if the fist is further from the shoulder than it started. It's geometry.

No, it won't, and no, it's not. I suggest you go try out some VT if you can't figure it out.

 

[geezer]

...

It's subtle ... I suggest you go try out some VT if you can't figure it out.

This is what it all really boils down to. People will argue till hell freezes over, ...me included. But I will only really get what you are saying if I can spend some time studying your branch of VT.

Unfortunately, I don't think anybody around here does your lineage. ...and I'm plenty challenged with what I do now .

 

[LFJ]

I will only really get what you are saying if I can spend some time studying your branch of VT.

I guess so, although, Steve seemed to figure it out just fine, but he wasn't coming with a bias.

The only thing I can think of that would screw the experiment up is not setting up right, having the surface too low to begin with, requiring a drastic drop of the shoulder or stance to stay on it.

It should start with your elbow naturally where it'd be in a punch-ready position off the table. Fist face level, elbow one fist's distance from the body, then just drive the elbow forward. Pretty simple, I thought.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because the VT punch can be executed perfectly fine without the elbow ascending from the original horizontal plane, as demonstrated in the experiment. The elbow can ascend with the triangle if targeting higher, but doesn't pop up or exceed shoulder level.



Shoulder being the lowest point along a line of attack was a description NI gave of his basic punch way back on page 3 or so.

I don't know when all of you decided to start attacking a stupid strawman.

I did address that "above the shoulder" at a couple of points. If you don't punch very high or very far (or, particularly, both), then the elbow can easily stay below the shoulder. I can see how by only punching from a near distance you'd be able to keep your elbow below your shoulder even when striking to the head of someone your own size. If they are significantly taller, you'd have to abandon hitting the head, but that's doable.

As for not ascending from the horizontal plane, when I see an example of an actual punch, I'll discuss that further. The "experiment" is not a punch - just a movement of the arm purposely designed to keep the elbow down. It lacks anything approaching punching power.