@gpseymour Thanks for rating all my posts funny. You come here solely to argue on behalf of other approaches to a MA you have no experience with. It's quite bizarre, and you are another odd grudge-holder for reasons unknown. I guess things seem funny when you have no idea what's going on.
cutting punch
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
This seemed to work for me. I was able to extend my arm while keeping my elbow down and in contact with the table. If, as juany suggests, this is physically impossible according to irrefutable laws of physics, I must have been doing it wrong, because, as LFJ suggests, it didn't seem to be all that difficult.
I don't know if it's an effective punching technique, but I am pretty sure it isn't contrary to natural laws.
It's also not much of a punch, and punching was the point under discussion. The claim at one point was that WSLVT punches always do that.
Either that or the laws of physics have been suspended in our favor to prove a point.
It's not a punch. It's an illustration. A real punch will have the entire body mass behind it, from ground up.
It's part of the overall mechanics. What's hard to understand?
Either you're abnormally slow, or are being oddly biased for some reason.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
That's hard for me to judge, as I don't punch that way. But I can say that LFJ doesn't seem to have asserted anything that is demonstrably false. Others, who have suggested that it is impossible, have asserted something that is demonstrably false.
From a lay perspective, the people who are making overblown claims that can be shown to be false are the ones losing credibility.
Or to put it similarly to how Juany did, I say, "an object at rest stays at rest," and you say, "Nuh uh. That's impossible." Who's credible?
LFJ says you can extend an arm while keeping the elbow down. He provides a simple, easily conducted experiment to demonstrate what he means. Other people say (and please picture Luke Skywalker responding to Darth Vader on Cloud City), "No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!"
Guy B: Search your feelings, you *know* it to be true!
Nobody Important: [anguished] No! No! "
Juany118
Senior Master
For the first part it has been clarified (since some people don't train specifically in the punch) that the elbow is oriented so it points "down" in the punch to provide the specific context being used here.
I no longer see the responses because clearly they will simply just keep moving goal posts in order to obfuscate the original error and hence why I no longer see their responses. I just wanted to clarify the difference between the two positions and that one is actually talking about a bonafide fact of bio mechanics. As an example even if you "sink" as you perform such a punch, relative to the surface you are standing on the elbow rises, simply because your sinking at the legs acts an opposing force doesn't change the actual movement of the elbow through space, which is as the hand moves forward the extension cause the elbow to rise due to it being a hinge joint. If you look at the video I linked early that is the WC punch. Additionally, as @gpseymour also made clear, unless you are going to bar a punch to the face/head of an opponent, after a particular size differential, the elbow will rise higher than the shoulder. None of this has anything to do with MA, it's biomechanics and geometry.
I have no problem with people having different opinions. As an example someone prefers another WC Lineage, another MA all together? Good for them, I am interested to learn how/why they came to their opinion as I will learn something. However to quote Harlan Ellison, "you are not entitled to an opinion, you are entitled to an informed opinion, no one is entitled to be ignorant." If someone is going to make statements contradicted by science I think, even if for only a bit, they need to be called for such shenanigans.
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From a lay perspective, you can see things clearly, or at least be honest about what you see, because you have no ego invested in being on one side or the other.
That can't be said of some who are posting against me, it seems. Juany thinks I dissed his lineage because I made an observation of something in a video that he said was not there.
I really don't know what dog gpseymour has in the fight, though.
I didn't see anything about a level punch. People are moving the goalposts on me. And now we're talking about the entire arm moving forward,,,
Your arm don't move forward when you punch?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
not my entire arm. Some of it is rotating around my shoulder.
If I had not done so, make it #3.
Please explain
Steve
Mostly Harmless
All I can tell you is that I can put my elbow on a table, elbow down with my fist vertical. Without sinking my legs or moving any other part of my body, I can extend my arm, sliding my elbow along the table until it is almost fully extended. My legs don't enter the picture. That's not my opinion. The above isn't me guessing I can do that. I actually did it. In fact, just to make sure, I took a brief moment after writing the sentences above to do it again. Did it.
Hold on... let me try again.
Did it again. And barring some kind of injury or impairment, you could do it, too, I am sure.
Bringing up snarky comments about opinions also doesn't reflect well on you. It's arrogant and unnecessarily dismissive (and I think you know that), particularly as your position is AS fully entrenched as you believe the other team's to be.
Juany118
Senior Master
That isn't what anyone is doing. First when it is being said the elbow rises we me this, for the purpose of illustration could you do this experiment.
Put your arm at a right angle, upper arm parallel to your side you fist pointing forward, the elbow down. Now extend your arm. You elbow is still pointed down BUT as your arm extends the elbow rises in relation to the surface you are standing on.
Next do the same thing but but have the target be continuously taller. Eventually your elbow will be higher than your shoulder.
That is all we are talking about on the opposing side. There has been a lot of extraneous BS thrown in but those two points are the key points and unless I missed something they really aren't up for debate.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
The shoulder is a ball joint. The part of my arm that is attached to the shoulder is rotating around the joint. It's not moving forward. Rather, it's moving in an arc. It may appear to be moving forward, but that's an illusion.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Has it occurred to you that if you're saying one thing that is clearly correct and the other team is saying something that is clearly correct, you might not be talking about the same thing? I mean, at some point, it seems like one of you would say, "You know, that sounds reasonable. I see what you mean. Here's what I mean." And everyone goes on about their business. In other words, if you're both right, you're either talking about something that has multiple possible right answers and we're in the realm of preference, or you're not talking about the same thing.
That's what I meant when I said that you're just as entrenched as the other side, and that you're all arguing such similar things that it's difficult to tell which side is which sometimes.
Juany118
Senior Master
Well I did just try your experiment and when I do so, to get to full extension of a punch (not elbow locked mind you but close to it and still keep the elbow still flat my torso moves. Yeah if I want my arm to stay at an angle from the elbow to the shoulder that can work but the angle between the elbow and shoulder is obviously more than one would have with a punch.
As such I have two options, lean sideways into the arm or lower the torso towards the table.
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