cutting punch

[Gerry Seymour]

It's subtle, but has major consequences on overall strategy and tactics.



No, it won't, and no, it's not. I suggest you go try out some VT if you can't figure it out.

You've given nothing to show that it's at all possible given the geometry. You just keep saying the same thing over and over, without providing any evidence, aside from a purely theoretical experiment that requires a slow movement of other parts of the body to work (shoulder must drop during the movement to adjust the geometry). I've asked at least 4 times for an actual video. I'm assuming at this point that the lack of a response is because one isn't available, anywhere.

 

[LFJ]

If they are significantly taller, you'd have to abandon hitting the head, but that's doable.

You can reach the chin of someone a whole head taller than you without the elbow exceeding shoulder level, especially as fighting stances and dynamics tend to lower their center, bringing their head more into range, not to mention your own tactics.

As for not ascending from the horizontal plane, when I see an example of an actual punch, I'll discuss that further. The "experiment" is not a punch - just a movement of the arm purposely designed to keep the elbow down. It lacks anything approaching punching power.

The punch is purposefully designed to keep the elbow down!

So, step away from the table and throw the same punch with whole body power. Duh.

You've given nothing to show that it's at all possible given the geometry. You just keep saying the same thing over and over, without providing any evidence, aside from a purely theoretical experiment that requires a slow movement of other parts of the body to work (shoulder must drop during the movement to adjust the geometry). I've asked at least 4 times for an actual video. I'm assuming at this point that the lack of a response is because one isn't available, anywhere.

The shoulder is kept down, but doesn't drop, especially not several inches. If Steve could figure it out, other people can as well. I don't know what your malfunction is, but I'm not gonna make an instructional video for you. Just go check out a VT school if interested.

 

[Steve]

I just wish you guys knew how happy this thread makes me.

 

[LFJ]

I just wish you guys knew how happy this thread makes me.

Nice clip of Juany and NI chi-sauing. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can reach the chin of someone a whole head taller than you without the elbow exceeding shoulder level, especially as fighting stances and dynamics tend to lower their center, bringing their head more into range, not to mention your own tactics.

Okay, bringing their head down to range is clearly not the same thing. At that point, they are no longer a head taller. Unless they are very close (and that may be the range you guys choose for that strike), hitting to their face level will necessitate the elbow rising that high. There are ways to change the scenario, but then you're arguing a different scenario.

The punch is purposefully designed to keep the elbow down!

So, step away from the table and throw the same punch with whole body power. Duh.

The shoulder is kept down, but doesn't drop, especially not several inches. If Steve could figure it out, other people can as well. I don't know what your malfunction is, but I'm not gonna make an instructional video for you. Just go check out a VT school if interested.

Steve did comment he wasn't sure it was an effective punch. I'm fairly certain it isn't, unless you've left something out of the description that would come into play in the actual punch. It's still a demonstration of a single movement. Why not show a video? Why is that impossible?

 

[LFJ]

Okay, bringing their head down to range is clearly not the same thing. At that point, they are no longer a head taller. Unless they are very close (and that may be the range you guys choose for that strike), hitting to their face level will necessitate the elbow rising that high. There are ways to change the scenario, but then you're arguing a different scenario.

I said "especially", meaning what came after that is not necessary.

Steve did comment he wasn't sure it was an effective punch. I'm fairly certain it isn't, unless you've left something out of the description that would come into play in the actual punch. It's still a demonstration of a single movement. Why not show a video? Why is that impossible?

Momentum and body mass, obviously.

But you can't even figure out how to do it, so I'm definitely certain whatever contortion you're doing with your body wouldn't make an effective punch.

If you think a VT punch is ineffective, again, visit a VT school and have a shot.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I said "especially", meaning what came after that is not necessary.



Momentum and body mass, obviously.

But you can't even figure out how to do it, so I'm definitely certain whatever contortion you're doing with your body wouldn't make an effective punch.

If you think a VT punch is ineffective, again, visit a VT school and have a shot.

Still no reply at all about the video?

 

[LFJ]

Still no reply at all about the video?

Did I not say I'm not making an instructional video for you, or did I not?

I think we're done here. Go to a VT school if interested in learning further. If not, don't.

 

[Steve]

Okay, bringing their head down to range is clearly not the same thing. At that point, they are no longer a head taller. Unless they are very close (and that may be the range you guys choose for that strike), hitting to their face level will necessitate the elbow rising that high. There are ways to change the scenario, but then you're arguing a different scenario.

Steve did comment he wasn't sure it was an effective punch. I'm fairly certain it isn't, unless you've left something out of the description that would come into play in the actual punch. It's still a demonstration of a single movement. Why not show a video? Why is that impossible?

For what it's worth, when I approximated a punching motion while keeping my elbow in contact with the table, it didn't feel completely awkward. I just don't want to get too far afield, and mislead anyone. I don't know if it's an ideal punching motion, because that's not my forte. But I can see where, if someone trained in it, and there was a way to engage more than just the arm, you can generate some power.

 

[Steve]

Still no reply at all about the video?

Hey guys. Seriously. Not all great training is on YouTube. didn't you say this just a bit ago? What's this weird obsession with video?

 

[Steve]

Did I not say I'm not making an instructional video for you, or did I not?

I think we're done here. Go to a VT school if interested in learning further. If not, don't.

Wait. Did you not or did you not? Is the answer yes, you did not, or no, you did not did not? I'm lost. Are you making a video? Please don't answer with a number.

 

[geezer]

I guess so, although, Steve seemed to figure it out just fine, but he wasn't coming with a bias.

The only thing I can think of that would screw the experiment up is not setting up right, having the surface too low to begin with, requiring a drastic drop of the shoulder or stance to stay on it.

It should start with your elbow naturally where it'd be in a punch-ready position off the table. Fist face level, elbow one fist's distance from the body, then just drive the elbow forward. Pretty simple, I thought.

Yeah, I'm trying it sitting here at my desk and it seems to work as you describe it. I just wish you could have explained it so clearly at the beginning rather than getting involved in that long back and forth with the other guys. It was frustrating to read, even as a bystander.

 

[guy b.]

I initially felt this at first. Do they think we are saying the elbow doesnt remain oriented down? Do they think we are somehow not focusing on the idea that you picture the elbow as moving "forward" when we punch and instead picture it rising?

The thing is a few times it was clarified, the elbow remains oriented down as it moves forward and the rising isn't a change in orientation, rather a movement through space that is only a consequence of the nature of the joint. So with that clarification made insisting the elbow stays down and doesn't rise makes little sense, but admittedly I can be anal retentive when focusing on little details.

Elbow over shoulder as NI is rising elbow. Elbow pops up = mistake, not VT

 

[Juany118]

Still no reply at all about the video?

The video I linked shows how to do a "standard" WC straight punch. As far as I can recall the action of the punch (in terms of arm movement) is consistent across all the YM lineages. There are differences in terms of preferred stance, but the "punch" itself is the same.

 

[guy b.]

Did I ever argue otherwise? No.



The elbow never rises above shoulder level, nor does it rise to close the triangle between the shoulder, fist, and elbow (full extension, popping elbow up).

This is what I have been comparing the entire thread long. Doing this, versus raising the elbow above shoulder level, or allowing it to rise to close the triangle, as NI described for his basic punch.

It doesn't matter to what level we punch, the elbow stays down. Not just oriented downward, down in relation to the shoulder and fist. It does not rise from the low position of the triangle.

What you guys are arguing against is a very stupid strawman about the elbow not ascending with the triangle.

Some of you have argued that the elbow cannot remain on the same horizontal plane while the arm is extended in a punch. That is demonstrably false and proven by the experiment I presented.

Does that mean the elbow will never ascend? No! But even as it ascends, the triangle is maintained. The elbow does not rise (in relation to the triangle or above shoulder level).

Please tell me you all can put your braincells together and understand this time.

Good post.

Hard to believe this was not understood on a VT forum

 

[guy b.]

This was a progression. Since I was addressing the statement by Guy that the elbow doesn't rise from the original horizontal plane (not the same thing as your current assertion that it remains pointing down), why did you feel the need to jump in and attempt to correct me if that wasn't your assertion, as well?

Elbow rising is elbow popping up. Standard VT terminology

 

[guy b.]

So, when I was talking about the fact that it will change horizontal planes, why were both you and he arguing with me? I was clearly NOT talking about the elbow mechanically needing to come above the elbow.

Since you were supporting NI's strong positive assertion that the elbow rises above the shoulder, it is hard to see what else you were talking about?

In VT rising elbow is as LFJ explained- elbow popping up above shoulder or closing the triangle. Elbow is always down in VT. I am sorry you don't understand VT. Not sure why you feel a need to argue about it

 

[guy b.]

That's an interesting concept. I'd love to chat about that sometime

Maybe need to change your desire to always be right first

 

[guy b.]

Shoulder being the lowest point along a line of attack was a description NI gave of his basic punch way back on page 3 or so.

I don't know when all of you decided to start attacking a stupid strawman.

Exactly

NI is someone that obviously doesn't do wing chun of any kind. The basic technical detail is just lacking. It is a troll.

Really odd that people on a wing chun forum would disregard this obvious fact in order to launch personal attacks

 

[Transk53]

I said "especially", meaning what came after that is not necessary.



Momentum and body mass, obviously.

But you can't even figure out how to do it, so I'm definitely certain whatever contortion you're doing with your body wouldn't make an effective punch.

If you think a VT punch is ineffective, again, visit a VT school and have a shot.

Maybe you could vid the VT punch, rather than hide behind a collection. Actually genuinely curious here.