cutting punch

[Gerry Seymour]

That's hard for me to judge, as I don't punch that way. But I can say that LFJ doesn't seem to have asserted anything that is demonstrably false. Others, who have suggested that it is impossible, have asserted something that is demonstrably false.

From a lay perspective, the people who are making overblown claims that can be shown to be false are the ones losing credibility.

Or to put it similarly to how Juany did, I say, "an object at rest stays at rest," and you say, "Nuh uh. That's impossible." Who's credible?

LFJ says you can extend an arm while keeping the elbow down. He provides a simple, easily conducted experiment to demonstrate what he means. Other people say (and please picture Luke Skywalker responding to Darth Vader on Cloud City), "No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!"
Guy B: Search your feelings, you *know* it to be true!
Nobody Important: [anguished] No! No! "

Actually, they've stated it's impossible to extend the arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow. That's demonstrably false. If you don't extend the arm, sure, but that's not going to cover much of a punch.

 

[Steve]

Well I did just try your experiment and when I do so, to get to full extension of a punch (not elbow locked mind you but close to it and still keep the elbow still flat my torso moves. Yeah if I want my arm to stay at an angle from the elbow to the shoulder that can work but the angle between the elbow and shoulder is obviously more than one would have with a punch.

As such I have two options, lean sideways into the arm or lower the torso towards the table.

Couple of things. First, it's not my experiment. It's LFJ's.

Second, I don't have to move my torso, but saying you do, is that a problem? I don't recall reading anyone saying that in a punch, the torso is locked down, and if you move your torso, we win. I only recall reading that it is biomechanically impossible to extend the arm without raising the elbow.

So, all of that to say, huzzah! It seems that we have reached a point of consensus. Can we all agree that it is actually possible to extend the arm in a motion that is not unlike a punch where the elbow moves roughly parallel to the ground?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Please explain

I think he's referring to the rotational motion of the upper arm. Steve, that contains a forward vector, as well.

 

[Steve]

Actually, they've stated it's impossible to extend the arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow. That's demonstrably false. If you don't extend the arm, sure, but that's not going to cover much of a punch.

I don't know, man. When I make a vertical fist with my elbow down on the table, I can extend my arm to just shy of fully extended without moving any other part of my body. Is it a good punch? I don't know. But it's a punching motion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Has it occurred to you that if you're saying one thing that is clearly correct and the other team is saying something that is clearly correct, you might not be talking about the same thing? I mean, at some point, it seems like one of you would say, "You know, that sounds reasonable. I see what you mean. Here's what I mean." And everyone goes on about their business. In other words, if you're both right, you're either talking about something that has multiple possible right answers and we're in the realm of preference, or you're not talking about the same thing.

That's what I meant when I said that you're just as entrenched as the other side, and that you're all arguing such similar things that it's difficult to tell which side is which sometimes.

Except that the discussion was about punching. I don't think there's much real disagreement about what that should include.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know, man. When I make a vertical fist with my elbow down on the table, I can extend my arm to just shy of fully extended without moving any other part of my body. Is it a good punch? I don't know. But it's a punching motion.

They've stated that in WSLVT the elbow NEVER rises from the original horizontal plane. That would mean ALL of their punches. Unless they want to assert this thing is their actual and only punch, it doesn't really provide useful support to their claim.

 

[Juany118]

Couple of things. First, it's not my experiment. It's LFJ's.

Second, I don't have to move my torso, but saying you do, is that a problem? I don't recall reading anyone saying that in a punch, the torso is locked down, and if you move your torso, we win. I only recall reading that it is biomechanically impossible to extend the arm without raising the elbow.

So, all of that to say, huzzah! It seems that we have reached a point of consensus. Can we all agree that it is actually possible to extend the arm in a motion that is not unlike a punch where the elbow moves roughly parallel to the ground?

Here is a video showing the WC punch. The torso is a lot more locked down than other styles. You put some shoulder and hip action, into it but leaning should only happen if your structure is disturbed. I still get talked to on occasion by my side for leaning.

The elbow clearly rises in relation to the surface the Sifu is standing on. To make matters even more confusing WSL, the founder of WSLPB-VT, is shown on this thread throwing punches with the elbow rising. NI went so far as to draw lines so you can more readily see the rise. So if a video like this shows it, plus photos of WSL, yet people say "it doesn't happen, why because I said so" it causes a touch of consternation.

 

[LFJ]

Put your arm at a right angle, upper arm parallel to your side you fist pointing forward, the elbow down. Now extend your arm. You elbow is still pointed down BUT as your arm extends the elbow rises in relation to the surface you are standing on.

Next do the same thing but but have the target be continuously taller. Eventually your elbow will be higher than your shoulder.

Rock 'em Sock 'em style? Who punches like that? Ridiculous...

It's not part of the overall mechanics of a punch. What's so hard to understand?

You know VT now?

Actually, they've stated it's impossible to extend the arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow. That's demonstrably false. If you don't extend the arm, sure, but that's not going to cover much of a punch.

It's demonstrably true that it's entirely possible. If you'd drop the bias and do the experiment you could prove it to yourself.

They've stated that in WSLVT the elbow NEVER rises from the original horizontal plane.

Quote please?

I think you'll find I said it may if you're aiming a punch higher, but the elbow is never allowed to rise over shoulder level, closing the triangle between shoulder, fist, and elbow.

In this sense, the only sense in which I was talking, the elbow does not rise, i.e. "pop up". The experiment demonstrates how to do it without even rising from the original horizontal plane.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Rock 'em Sock 'em style? Who punches like that? Ridiculous...



You know VT now?



It's demonstrably true that it's entirely possible. If you'd drop the bias and do the experiment you could prove it to yourself.



Quote please?

I think you'll find I said it may if you're aiming a punch higher, but the elbow is never allowed to rise over shoulder level, closing the triangle between shoulder, fist, and elbow.

In this sense, the only sense in which I was talking, the elbow does not rise, i.e. "pop up". The experiment demonstrates how to do it without even rising from the original horizontal plane.

Oy. The claim was made several times that in WSLVT the elbow doesn't rise during a punch. If you disbelieve that, me posting the quotes won't change your mind. The "experiment" challenges a strawman (that the arm cannot move without raising the elbow), rather than the actual argument (normal punching raises the elbow due to mechanics of the arm).

Still funny.

 

[Juany118]

Oy. The claim was made several times that in WSLVT the elbow doesn't rise during a punch. If you disbelieve that, me posting the quotes won't change your mind. The "experiment" challenges a strawman (that the arm cannot move without raising the elbow), rather than the actual argument (normal punching raises the elbow due to mechanics of the arm).

Still funny.

I had to check to see who what you were responding to "rocket sockem" made me giggle. Apparently some people miss the point that an experiment can be there to simply illustrate the biomechanical standard being discussed. The mechanics of a hinge joint don't miraculously change due to purpose, a hinge is a hinge and will move the same way whether the arm starts at a 45, 90, 130, 160 etc until it reaches 180 degrees (though technically I suppose you can hyper extend the joint a little with adequate force and still not be injured).

The final point being biomechanics are not tied to a single MA, they are what they are.

 

[Steve]

I think he's referring to the rotational motion of the upper arm. Steve, that contains a forward vector, as well.

Depends on where the arc stops. Doesn't it?

Actually, they've stated it's impossible to extend the arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow. That's demonstrably false. If you don't extend the arm, sure, but that's not going to cover much of a punch.

Come on, man. If you're getting so nitpicky for the one side, you have to do the same for the other. Both sides are arguing semantics, which was my overly subtle point when I commented about the rotation of the arm around the shoulder.

Regarding this demonstrably false thing, once again, I can extend my arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow. I'm not not extending the arm (double negative intentional). It's a punching motion. Have you tried it on the table? It's pretty easy presuming you have a table handy... and an arm.

 

[wtxs]

Hmm... it sure looks like a right lap-sau and left hand fak-sau to me. BTW hasn't this become a really stupid thread? I think a lot of WC/WT/VT people must just delight in arguing. I mean, all this just regarding elbow position in punching? Sheesh.

FYI: In our lineage we keep the elbow low, and at proper hitting range (with the arm bent) the elbow tends to stay lower than the fist. Even when punching upward, the bent elbow points downward. Now when air-punching in practice, we let our punches extend and the arm straighten out. Then, of course the elbow rises, and many people from other lineages see this and think that we advocate "popping the elbow up". We don't. But others can think whatever they want. I will explain what we do and that's the end of it. Only an idiot knowingly argues with an idiot. I really have nothing more to add to this thread.

The operative word is "elbow points downward", not a stretch to phrase it as "elbow stays down". So in reality, the WC elbow will stay pointed down but will shift upward vertically (ever slightly) with any upward punch passes the horizontal plan ... as some had repeatedly pointed out ... biomechanics.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends on where the arc stops. Doesn't it?

Actually, it would matter where it starts and which direction it goes. If it is rotating, that motion contains either a forward vector or a backward (okay, technically a negative forward) vector. For any punching motion, the fist is moving forward, so the upper arm is rotating upward (assuming an elbow-down orientation). That rotation has an upward vector and a forward vector.

Come on, man. If you're getting so nitpicky for the one side, you have to do the same for the other. Both sides are arguing semantics, which was my overly subtle point when I commented about the rotation of the arm around the shoulder.

I admittedly haven't actually read all of the arguments on the other side, Steve (I do that on a lot of threads - I don't have time to read all the posts, so I try to follow portions). I started watching this because I was hoping to pick up some new terminology and new ways of expressing principles. A claim was made that I saw as outrageous, so I challenged it. From that point, I've pretty much stuck to reading posts I felt were related to that claim.

Regarding this demonstrably false thing, once again, I can extend my arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow. I'm not not extending the arm (double negative intentional). It's a punching motion. Have you tried it on the table? It's pretty easy presuming you have a table handy... and an arm.

I didn't actually need to try it. I know it can be done. A partial punching motion, however, is not the same as a punch, and is certainly not the same as all of their punches. And since the claim was made that their punch doesn't allow the elbow to rise (and they've been unwilling to post an example of such to show me where I am misunderstanding what they mean. Without any explanation or evidence to the contrary, I have to assume their punches work essentially like every other punch. There's plenty of evidence they don't fight within 3 fist-lengths all the time nor do they only punch a gut level, so they would have punches that don't conform to that experiment.

 

[Steve]

Here is a video showing the WC punch. The torso is a lot more locked down than other styles. You put some shoulder and hip action, into it but leaning should only happen if your structure is disturbed. I still get talked to on occasion by my side for leaning.


The elbow clearly rises in relation to the surface the Sifu is standing on. To make matters even more confusing WSL, the founder of WSLPB-VT, is shown on this thread throwing punches with the elbow rising. NI went so far as to draw lines so you can more readily see the rise. So if a video like this shows it, plus photos of WSL, yet people say "it doesn't happen, why because I said so" it causes a touch of consternation.

I think your position is very clear. I get it.

Couple of things stand out. First, is there one WC punch? I get the impression that there are differences of opinion on that one.

Second, isn't there a difference between saying that something doesn't happen (as you say above) and that something is impossible in the natural world because bio-mechanics and physics? Particularly when a simple experiment using a desk and one's own arm can show otherwise?

The idea of whether they punch like that is kind of moot, IMO. I mean, if LFJ says they punch that way, and you don't train in his school, what's the problem? he's not going to go to your school (I hope) and make you change your technique. Even with video evidence. Seriously, I've seen some really bad WC anti-grappling around here, and when they say, "Yeah, but that's not REAL anti-grappling. We don't ACTUALLY train that way," at some point you just have to shrug your shoulders and move on.

 

[wtxs]

This is the video he captured the still from.

PB is doing faak-sau throughout the clip to check the students' wu-sau.

As he says, "Wu-sau, wu-sau, wu-sau. The problem is... wu-sau".

At 0:17 - :019 elbow stays down ... rise as the right goes up and forward.

Elbow rise and elbow stays down = apple and oranges = debate of dissimilar ideas.

 

[Steve]

Actually, it would matter where it starts and which direction it goes. If it is rotating, that motion contains either a forward vector or a backward (okay, technically a negative forward) vector. For any punching motion, the fist is moving forward, so the upper arm is rotating upward (assuming an elbow-down orientation). That rotation has an upward vector and a forward vector.

You're killing me. Negative forward vectors?

I admittedly haven't actually read all of the arguments on the other side, Steve (I do that on a lot of threads - I don't have time to read all the posts, so I try to follow portions). I started watching this because I was hoping to pick up some new terminology and new ways of expressing principles. A claim was made that I saw as outrageous, so I challenged it. From that point, I've pretty much stuck to reading posts I felt were related to that claim.

I've been following this feud for a while, and have enjoyed the back and forth bickering. Both sides have demonstrated a remarkable degree of stamina. I'm a generally curious guy, so I like reading the threads, and while some of these get so technical I can't follow the specifics, the arguments make it worthwhile. It's like watching a telenovella in Spanish. I don't speak Spanish, but I still enjoy watching the show.

I didn't actually need to try it. I know it can be done. A partial punching motion, however, is not the same as a punch, and is certainly not the same as all of their punches.

It's not what I would call a partial punching motion. I mean, my arm can get very close to fully extended. The elbow isn't locked out, but it's within a few degrees.

And since the claim was made that their punch doesn't allow the elbow to rise (and they've been unwilling to post an example of such to show me where I am misunderstanding what they mean. Without any explanation or evidence to the contrary, I have to assume their punches work essentially like every other punch. There's plenty of evidence they don't fight within 3 fist-lengths all the time nor do they only punch a gut level, so they would have punches that don't conform to that experiment.

3 fist lengths is hyperbolic. I'll leave the rest to the experts. All I can say with any confidence is that it feels like a punching motion when I slide my elbow along the table.

 

[Steve]

At 0:17 - :019 elbow stays down ... rise as the right goes up and forward.

Elbow rise and elbow stays down = apple and oranges = debate of dissimilar ideas.

that's been my working theory for 16 pages.

 

[Juany118]

I think your position is very clear. I get it.

Couple of things stand out. First, is there one WC punch? I get the impression that there are differences of opinion on that one.

Second, isn't there a difference between saying that something doesn't happen (as you say above) and that something is impossible in the natural world because bio-mechanics and physics? Particularly when a simple experiment using a desk and one's own arm can show otherwise?

The idea of whether they punch like that is kind of moot, IMO. I mean, if LFJ says they punch that way, and you don't train in his school, what's the problem? he's not going to go to your school (I hope) and make you change your technique. Even with video evidence. Seriously, I've seen some really bad WC anti-grappling around here, and when they say, "Yeah, but that's not REAL anti-grappling. We don't ACTUALLY train that way," at some point you just have to shrug your shoulders and move on.

The straight punch mechanic is pretty much the bread and butter punch and the same arm mechanic is also used with palm strikes. Some Lineages (like mine) have a "Buffalo punch" where the elbow is oriented sideways and the fist is vertical, but clearly that is a different mechanic entirely, but the straight punch is very much standardized. Here is a video of the first form. This teaches you the basic mechanics of the hand and arm movements, part of which is training the elbow movement not only in terms of forwarding energy but it's relationship to the centerline.

 

[wtxs]

Yes this whole discussion is ignorant, I take my share of the blame. What I can't understand is why so many allow LFJ and Guy B. to continue to bully without calling them out on their BS.

Don't be so hard on your self, we ALL fall for their game.

IF no one respond to their post or very one use the IGNORE button, mayyy be they will go away.

 

[LFJ]

I admittedly haven't actually read all of the arguments on the other side,

Then stop trolling.

partial punching motion, however, is not the same as a punch,

It is the full arm action of the punch.

There's plenty of evidence they don't fight within 3 fist-lengths all the time nor do they only punch a gut level, so they would have punches that don't conform to that experiment.

The experiment was face level, if you read it. Over-extension is out of range for VT punching.