cutting punch

[Nobody Important]

That's right the hand is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you are striking with an open hand or closed fist the action is the same. Its to what purpose you put to it. You said that you never bring the elbow up, then you said it never goes higher than the shoulder. I told you several times that the inner gate strike could be done with biu sau and it wouldn't change the principle. You simply want to spin things to deny that at times the elbow goes up and sometimes above the shoulder. I've given you more than enough evidence to prove that it does. So please by all means, continue to sling mud, spin the narrative and divert because you were caught lying. If that whats get you through the day and helps you rest easy at night, I'll be glad to enable you. You have not once honestly participated in any aspect of this conversation. You have only attempted to assert your authority.

 

[LFJ]

That's right the hand is irrelevant.

The left is a faak-sau!

You have not shown a VT punch with the elbow higher than shoulder.

 

[LFJ]

If you perform the action correctly the elbow doesn't move much from vertical fist to Biu, the action is mostly wrist.

Because your system is wrist-focused. No SNT elbow idea present.

 

[Steve]

I think it's more that a bunch of us are frustrated by two people. You could post a video from their Sifu that completely contradicts them and they would say "our Sifu purposefully lied in that video" to dismiss their error.

Some people chose to just ignore them, a valid response. Some of us have just had it to the point that they need to illustrate just how ridiculous they are being.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

From the outside, you guys don't look any different. Seriously. It's a 13 page thread about whether the elbow rises. Don't get me wrong. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. But don't pretend you've got the moral high ground. Youre all entrenched.

 

[Nobody Important]

The left is a faak-sau! Do you even know what a faak-sau is? Why would you think I mean the right hand?

You have not shown a VT punch with the elbow higher than shoulder.

Because what he is doing with his right hand is irrelevant. The focus is on what he's doing with his left arm. Yes the first was a Faak Sau at :14, but the one at :15 is a quick straight in and out punch. Now if you insist that its a Faak Sau, OK. But I cant confirm that when there isn't a hand to definitively prove otherwise. I'd say that if his hand was there, that motion could be a Biu Sau. Either way, it looks like a straight punch to me, straight in and out. Besides the focus is on the action of the elbow rising, I could care less what "technique" it is. The example clearly illustrates the point I've been making. You're attempting to turn it into something else. Care to explain those "elbow ideas" yet? Or are you going to continue to avoid that?

 

[LFJ]

Because what he is doing with his right hand is irrelevant. The focus is on what he's doing with his left arm. Yes the first was a Faak Sau at :14, but the one at :15 is a quick straight in and out punch. Now if you insist that its a Faak Sau, OK. But I cant confirm that when there isn't a hand to definitively prove otherwise.

It is a faak-sau, and I thought you said the hand is irrelevant. Why can't you recognize faak-sau without seeing the hand?

Besides the focus is on the action of the elbow rising, I could care less what "technique" it is. The example clearly illustrates the point I've been making. You're attempting to turn it into something else.

We were talking about punches. This thread is titled "cutting punch". You are the one looking at faak-sau even though you can't recognize it without the hand, because you don't understand elbow.

 

[Nobody Important]

Because your system is wrist-focused. No SNT elbow idea present.

Please quit spreading lies, you know zilch about the system I study. I honestly don't even know why you're arguing with me about something you, yourself admittedly don't do. Doesn't make sense to me. I guess you just want to claim that you have a better style than I do. If that's the case, don't let me hold you back, I don't care what you think about YCWWC. Your opinion doesn't matter.

 

[LFJ]

Please quit spreading lies, you know zilch about the system I study. I honestly don't even know why you're arguing with me about something you, yourself admittedly don't do. Doesn't make sense to me. I guess you just want to claim that you have a better style than I do. If that's the case, don't let me hold you back, I don't care what you think about YCWWC. Your opinion doesn't matter.

Your descriptions have revealed the wrist focus of your system.

I have not said either is better or worse. I haven't given an opinion of YCWWC. If you can get it to work, that's great.

We're just talking about the elbow focus. There or not? In yours, it appears not. This shouldn't offend you. You train a different system.

 

[Nobody Important]

Your descriptions have revealed the wrist focus of your system.

I have not said either is better or worse. I haven't given an opinion of YCWWC. If you can get it to work, that's great.

We're just talking about the elbow focus. There or not? In yours, it appears not. This shouldn't offend you. You train a different system.

Your ideas on elbow? I wouldn't know you've never explained them. Doesn't matter anyways. It's getting late and I'm sure everyone is out of popcorn and beer by now. We've come to an impasse, no sense of continuing to beat this dead horse. Goodnight LFJ, thank you for the rousing conversation. Everyone else, you're welcome. I'll stop in sometime next week for another stimulating round of nonsense.

 

[LFJ]

Your ideas on elbow?

YMVT.

Irrelevant to you, which makes it really bizarre why you are even here.

 

[dudewingchun]

how far do you guys punch in PBWSLVT? You'd have to punch only like a fist distance away from your body to keep your elbow down. Pretty sure it doesnt matter to you though, just here to rark theses guys up.

 

[LFJ]

how far do you guys punch in PBWSLVT? You'd have to punch only like a fist distance away from your body to keep your elbow down.

Same as WSL and YM.

Look at the image NI made. Is his elbow down? Yes. Is it only a fist away from his body? No.

 

[Juany118]

From the outside, you guys don't look any different. Seriously. It's a 13 page thread about whether the elbow rises. Don't get me wrong. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. But don't pretend you've got the moral high ground. Youre all entrenched.

If someone says "an object at rest remains at rest unless acted upon by an outside force" and defends that position and another person insists that an inanimate object can begin moving without said force, the first person may indeed be entrenched but he is entrenched in a scientific facts, the other person is entrenched in either denial or misunderstanding.

Literally that was the issue here, though it has been derailed quite nicely. The biomechanical fact that when an arm is extended with the elbow down the elbow will rise in relation to the surface you are standing on. Now can we argue that it is useless to try and debate with someone who denies a scientific fact? Yep. When is why I now have some people on ignore, but that's really about it.

 

[LFJ]

Literally that was the issue here, though it has been derailed quite nicely. The biomechanical fact that when an arm is extended with the elbow down the elbow will rise in relation to the surface you are standing on.

It hasn't been derailed. That was just never the issue.

The issue was maintaining the triangle between shoulder, fist, and elbow, by keeping the elbow at the lowest point, versus losing the triangle by allowing the elbow to rise up to above shoulder level.

VT punches keep the elbow low and drive forward from the elbow.

And by the way, whether or not and how much the elbow will rise in relation to the ground depends on how far you are extending forward or upward.

I can have my elbow one fist's distance from my body and extend an elbow-driven punch to a good three fists' distance without the elbow rising in relation to the ground.

Next time you go to a bar or have a tall enough countertop, table, or maybe dresser around, prop your elbow up on it in punch-ready position, fist face height. You might have to stand a bit diagonally to it, so you have say left lead leg, right arm punching.

Then, extend your punch not leading with the wrist and allowing the elbow to rise, but driving forward with the elbow down. See how far it slides on the flat surface without rising off. You'll probably get at least a good 20cm if you do it right.

That's punching with the elbow down. If you need to angle a punch more upward, the same low elbow applies. The elbow should not pop up and lose triangle even when rising in relation to the ground.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Silly question but if you are moving off line to counter punch why would you want your punch to jam up their punch?

You are out of the way. Any jamming is only slowing your attack down.

Remember that this is an incidental interception. They structure the punch so that it _can_ intersect if the attack is there. Why would intersecting be useful if you're off-line? It disrupts the attacker's body structure, even if only slightly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Pivot to dodge. Wrist-led punch to attack the arm and head. = Reactive arm-chasing.



Same as above, but won't work without raising your elbow.



So, level is referring to the incoming punch, and you modify your punch to deal with it. Same as above. Reactive arm-chasing.



You just said your elbow will rise to higher than shoulder, otherwise you'll get hit. There's no need to wedge if you have dodged.



PB is not doing what you describe.

Except that you're still ignoring the fact that they DON'T adjust the punch to try to intersect that attack. He's specifying the conditions under which the intersection would occur, not how they make it happen. It's not "arm chasing" if they are striking from that position and the intersection is incidental. I'd accept the "arm chasing" claim if they were making those movements in order to intersect that strike.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And?

VT elbow stays low.

Nobody Important has described raising the elbow above shoulder level.

If the punch is high enough, the elbow would be above shoulder level (striking the head of someone a foot taller would be an example). That's the only example NI provided that put the elbow above the shoulder - it's the extreme.

 

[Steve]

If someone says "an object at rest remains at rest unless acted upon by an outside force" and defends that position and another person insists that an inanimate object can begin moving without said force, the first person may indeed be entrenched but he is entrenched in a scientific facts, the other person is entrenched in either denial or misunderstanding.

Literally that was the issue here, though it has been derailed quite nicely. The biomechanical fact that when an arm is extended with the elbow down the elbow will rise in relation to the surface you are standing on. Now can we argue that it is useless to try and debate with someone who denies a scientific fact? Yep. When is why I now have some people on ignore, but that's really about it.

doesnt that depend on the direction the arm is being extended and whether the shoulder is engaged?

And ultimately, even if your point is irrefutable, does it matter? you are convinced you're right, and you won't stop because you have a weird need to make whoever it is that you disagree with (I honestly don't know which of them that is off the top of my head) acknowledge that you are right. Do you think theyre going to, all of a sudden, say, "juany, my bad. You're so smart and handsome, I should know better than to argue with you. Are you free tonight?"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the elbow pops up to above shoulder level, it is being allowed to rise.

VT elbow stays low. It doesn't rise to shoulder level and definitely not above.

How is that "all over the place"? It's what I have been saying.
If I punch forward, my elbow stays low and moves forward.

Actually, you stated that the elbow doesn't rise at all. While that can be accomplished on low, short strikes (by extending the shoulder into the strike), it's not possible in a full-range punch (even if, as we do, the punch is never extended to fully straighten the arm) and not possible without extending the shoulder forward.

Now, if you're talking about keeping the elbow low (as opposed to not letting it come up, at all), that's a common principle in many arts and styles, and nothing odd.

 

[LFJ]

Except that you're still ignoring the fact that they DON'T adjust the punch to try to intersect that attack. He's specifying the conditions under which the intersection would occur, not how they make it happen. It's not "arm chasing" if they are striking from that position and the intersection is incidental. I'd accept the "arm chasing" claim if they were making those movements in order to intersect that strike.

He said his arm has to extend more, raising the elbow, depending on the level of the opponent's punch.

How he punches is therefore dictated by the opponent's punch.

If the punch is high enough, the elbow would be above shoulder level (striking the head of someone a foot taller would be an example). That's the only example NI provided that put the elbow above the shoulder - it's the extreme.

When he described his basic punch it was "shoulder at the lowest point on the line of attack".

That means the elbow is above shoulder level, not because he's punching way up high, but because he's punching from the wrong range.

Actually, you stated that the elbow doesn't rise at all. While that can be accomplished on low, short strikes (by extending the shoulder into the strike), it's not possible in a full-range punch (even if, as we do, the punch is never extended to fully straighten the arm) and not possible without extending the shoulder forward.

So what? If you are landing punches at full extension of the arm, you're at the wrong range for VT. There will be no power in the punch, plus it'll be further dampened if you're using the elbow lift to wedge out the opponent's arm from underneath.

Now, if you're talking about keeping the elbow low (as opposed to not letting it come up, at all), that's a common principle in many arts and styles, and nothing odd.

Never said it was odd. What's odd is that none of you understood how it could be physically possible to not allow rise in the elbow.