Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[PhotonGuy]

At my dojo, that's not the case. In ISKF, you have to be a nidan to start the instructor training program, and a sandan to be certified as an instructor. So you don't become an instructor solely by virtue of rank; it's an additional qualification that rank simply makes you eligible to seek.

At my last dojo, all black belts taught. However, shodan and nidan taught under the direction of a sandan or above. They didn't get keys to the dojo to run the place on their own. Only sandan and above got that.

So, at best, shodan (and possibly nidan) aren't degreed teachers. They're teacher's aides, or college students (who don't have their bachelor's yet) who are getting the required classroom experience necessary to earn credits towards their degree.

Well you wouldn't be leading class at shodan but you would sometimes be an assistant instructor, sometimes even at brown belt I was expected to help with some of the teaching. You do have a point though, that first degree black belt would be more like the equivalent of somebody in college who hasn't gotten a degree yet but who might be interning to become a teacher and so forth.

 

[Leviathan]

No, why do you say that?

Because you said black belt is only the beginning. So before the beginning is... nothing.

 

[drop bear]

Because you said black belt is only the beginning. So before the beginning is... nothing.

Name one example where before the beginning was nothing?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Because you said black belt is only the beginning. So before the beginning is... nothing.

Can we say that black belt mean you can train MA for the rest of your life without any teacher?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Name one example where before the beginning was nothing?

Leviathan isn't making that claim. He's accusing PhotonGuy of making it.

 

[Leviathan]

Name one example where before the beginning was nothing?

Everything! Everything starts with the beginning.

 

[Leviathan]

Leviathan isn't making that claim. He's accusing PhotonGuy of making it.

"Accusing" is a big word. I'm not pressing charges or anything along those lines. I just asked him to back up his claim that black belt is the beginning.

I have been in several dojos and done several martial arts and nowhere did they give me a black belt on my first training (and I am no exception). So saying black belt is the beginning is simply wrong. From white belt to black belt you learn a lot.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Because you said black belt is only the beginning. So before the beginning is... nothing.

Well the way I look at it, when you're a black belt you're a "serious" beginner. From my experience, most students are going to drop out before reaching black belt. There are different levels of being a beginner, you can be a beginner who is just starting out or you can be a more advanced beginner. Being a black belt would be like being a more advanced beginner so all the ranks before it would be earlier stages of being a beginner but the fact of the matter is that first degree black belt is a rather low rank when you look at all the dan ranks and in Japan the rank of first degree black belt is called Shodan which is literally translated as "low man," so there you have it.

The fact of the matter is that in the martial arts no matter what rank you've got or even if you want to throw rank out the window and just look at knowledge and skill, no matter how much you know and how skilled you are you can always learn more and you can always get better. So even the really high dan ranks can be seen as "beginner" ranks depending on your point of view.

 

[HighKick]

From my experience, most students are going to drop out before reaching black belt.

The average attrition rate for schools of all styles in the US is around 60%, nearly all of this being in the green belt and below range. There is always going to be a high percentage of people who try martial arts and realize it is not for them. No harm, no foul.
My source of this data is from a Lot of internet research and talking to the schools owners I know, roughly 200 schools. From my own school data, it is quite accurate.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Well the way I look at it, when you're a black belt you're a "serious" beginner.

I'm not sure if I disagree with this statement, or if I think it's just a bad choice of words. If one becomes a "serious beginner" upon earning their black belt, this implies that they were just screwing around and goofing off up to that point.

From my experience, most students are going to drop out before reaching black belt. There are different levels of being a beginner, you can be a beginner who is just starting out or you can be a more advanced beginner.

"Advanced beginner" is an oxymoron.

In some judo associations, white belt is not designated with a numerical kyu rank, and is simply referred to as "novice." The implication here is that upon reaching yellow belt, one is no longer a novice.

Shodan which is literally translated as "low man," so there you have it.

Are you sure about that?

My argument against black belt being a beginner is two-fold.

1. Karate existed before the belt system.
2. When the belt system was invented, it wasn't even for karate.

So before the belt system was adopted by karate, where was the line drawn at which comes a "serious" or "advanced" beginner?

 

[isshinryuronin]

This conversation was becoming tiresome, but this is an interesting question:

So before the belt system was adopted by karate, where was the line drawn at which comes a "serious" or "advanced" beginner?

I don't think there was a line as such. There was not any need for one. The main purpose of the belt system was to adapt to Japan's structured and organized way of doing things. Their other openly taught MA, judo, had belts, so karate had to have them too if it wished to be accepted.

Being introduced to Japan's public schools by Funakoshi, karate again had to conform. School means curriculum and grades. Karate, then, also needed to have a printed, set curriculum and some sort of grading system. Funakoshi had been teaching since at least 1910, maybe earlier. Yet, he did not award any black belts till 1924 - he got it in the school system in 1922. So, based on all the above, it seems karate being introduced to the Japanese school system was the precipitating factor to its kyu/dan system.

Before this (1900), in Okinawa, karate was still taught in secret, or at least it was restricted to a few handpicked students taught 1 on 1. Karate people were a tiny, tiny group of people. The instructors had intimate knowledge of each student and knew exactly each student's skills and ability. There was no need for curriculum or grades. For schools, information had to be presented in discreet packets, digital-like. Before this, it could be taught in an informal continuum, analog-like.

Still, there was a point where a student would be recognized as "advanced." This was done in the form of him receiving a teaching license by the master, authorizing that he was skilled enough to teach other students. There came to be three levels of shogo (which has been discussed in this forum a short time ago). This largely sufficed in Okinawa until after WWII when they fully accepted the Japanese karate rank system after 20 years.

 

[Leviathan]

Well the way I look at it, when you're a black belt you're a "serious" beginner. From my experience, most students are going to drop out before reaching black belt. There are different levels of being a beginner, you can be a beginner who is just starting out or you can be a more advanced beginner. Being a black belt would be like being a more advanced beginner so all the ranks before it would be earlier stages of being a beginner but the fact of the matter is that first degree black belt is a rather low rank when you look at all the dan ranks and in Japan the rank of first degree black belt is called Shodan which is literally translated as "low man," so there you have it.

The fact of the matter is that in the martial arts no matter what rank you've got or even if you want to throw rank out the window and just look at knowledge and skill, no matter how much you know and how skilled you are you can always learn more and you can always get better. So even the really high dan ranks can be seen as "beginner" ranks depending on your point of view.

I understand your point but you're overstretching the meaning of the word "beginner" to such an extent that it has become meaningless as you apply it to at least 99,999% of the practicioners. It's as absurd as stating Norway and Iceland are southern countries because they are not the north pole...

Accept the idea that even experts can still learn something and the concept of "intermediate". Life has more to offer than 99,999% white and 0,001% black.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I understand your point but you're overstretching the meaning of the word "beginner" to such an extent that it has become meaningless as you apply it to at least 99,999% of the practicioners. It's as absurd as stating Norway and Iceland are southern countries because they are not the north pole...

Accept the idea that even experts can still learn something and the concept of "intermediate". Life has more to offer than 99,999% white and 0,001% black.

Agreed. These are the predecessors to the belt/kyu/dan system in karate:

- the game of Go
- the black band for Japanese swimmers
- belt rank system invented by Jigoro Kano for judo

In ALL off these, dan ranking and/or authorization to wear a black belt or band was reserved for those were considered advanced. Not beginners. In fact, this is explicitly stated in the rules/policies for all three.

I've said this before, but I don't believe that "black belt is the beginning" in karate refers to what you know or practice in the curriculum. It likely has more to do with instilling shoshin into karateka and/or reminding students that they don't "graduate" and stop training at black belt.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I've said this before, but I don't believe that "black belt is the beginning" in karate refers to what you know or practice in the curriculum. It likely has more to do with instilling shoshin into karateka and/or reminding students that they don't "graduate" and stop training at black belt.

"Shoshin." Sho(o) - beginning; shin - mind. A great concept for everyone throughout their lives.

By first dan black belt (3-5 years of study) one has learned all the basics and most of the principles, maybe 80% of the system. But that missing 20% may take another 10-20 years to get down.

That 20% or other numeric representation of MA level is misleading in that its effect is disproportionately greater than its quantitative label. An 8th dan is more than 20% better than a 1st. That 20% is what makes the 80% work like it's supposed to and realize its full potential and leads to understanding what the "art" really is.

Saying that "black belt is the beginning" doesn't refer to the relative quantity of what you've already learned but sets you up to begin learning that all-important remaining 20%. It's more than just the attitude of "shoshin," it has concrete and practical meaning and benefit.