When is a beginner no longer a beginner?

[still learning]

Hello, Something to look and study in your field!

A white belt with natural "KILLER INSTINTS" vs a Black belt without one?

I put my money on the white belt. (equal size and shape).

A black belt with natural "KILLER INSTINTS vs one that does not have a killer instinct? ...money goes to one with a killer instinct!

WHY? ...those who have this "killer instinct" ....will fight NO matter a person size or numbers...they will NEVER GIVE UP!

When is a beginner NOT a beginner? .....depends on the mental outlook!

Getting back to the topic....one with the killer instinct...does not care what happen to themselves.......those with the killler instinct' do not worry about what happen to them......

So in a fight? .....like a Samurai? ....if you fear for your life? ...you will lose...think like a TRUE Samurai? ....you have NO fear for your own life...therefore can fight without fear

Trap a cat in a cornor? ...the same results...the cat will have a killer instinct to fight back NO matter the size of the dog!

Ranks may have a place for learning....but many times cannot create the killer instincts....

Some are born with this "KILLER INSTINCTS" ...OTHER's may never acheived this level!

Aloha, ( What is a natural born killer?)

PS: All of us know people who have NO fear! the natural ones' with the killer instincts!

 

[JWLuiza]

Sports Psych Journals have a consensus for time frame for expertise in most sports. I think it was within 10 years of continuous training for peak physical performance.

I would start taking a look at the work in mainstream sports and try to port it over towards martial arts training. I know APA has a big Sports Psych division and there are some good peer reviewed articles out there on other sports. The MA related articles tend to be in lower tier journals though.

 

[DojangMom]

I agree that the martial arts journey is never ending, and we are all "beginners" in that we are constantly learning and growing.

Having said that, there is a HUGE difference in the way I work today than there was when I first walked into the dojang. Not that I'm any good, yet. But, there's a little less awkwardness, a little less feeling like the new kid in kindergarten. Even simple things like holding targets for others to kick was a completely foreign concept to me in the beginning. When you can concentrate on training in earnest without worrying about tripping over your own feet for no apparent reason (I still trip over them, but at least now there's usually a reason ), then, I think, you're not really a "beginner" anymore, but simply "in training".

 

[CaffeineKing]

Hi guys. My thanks for your many replies. I’m sorry that it’s taken a long time to get back to you all, but I was best man at a wedding over the weekend. Throw in a UK bank holiday and it’s been a while since I’ve been able to get online without thinking to myself that I need to get some work done!

I’d like to pick up on a few points. Bluekey88, I certainly appreciate your point about acquired skill levels. I remember back to my first driving lessons for example. Oh dear, oh dear… And Lynne, my congratulations to you on starting martial arts, and following your daughter with your eyes wide open. I’m very much impressed and I hope you stick at it. You make an excellent point here:

Caffeine, I've seen people appear in their new doboks. They've never come back. I can't say whether they attended one or two free trial classes or not. The instructors make it particularly difficult on people trying out so they will know what they are getting themselves into. I can only assume these newbies signed up without the benefit of a trial class. In one case, the student was a teen and collapsed during class. In two other cases, I recall two morbidly obese women. There are some who have stayed with us for awhile and left while still a white belt.

Some people cut the mustard, some don’t. How can we predict this?

Another interesting point taken by several people is that you never stop being a beginner. I like this too, and I’d like to say how much I admire this line of thought as well. I’m not the most knowledgeable martial artist (a lapsed “beginner” in truth), but I can best relate to this point by comparing it to when I started my postgraduate degree. Suddenly a whole new world opens up when you realise all the things that you *haven’t* been taught and as such, you realise what you don’t know. Healthy in any point in life, and I’m impressed so many people here think that way. Thanks for your thoughts.

To take this point:

The desire to label and categorize is not very useful.

Fighting has little to do with labels.

We can call someone "beginner" or "expert" - what is the point?

In real life, I totally agree. But my professional purpose is to take two groups of people and compare them. Not on how they fight, but in how increasing knowledge of the martial arts can aid – or not - their ability to cope with the pressures of modern life. After all, unlike any other animal human beings have the capacity to stress about things that probably won’t happen! That alone can burn people out, but why some and not others? Scientifically, you have to be able to define your group or you’ll never get published. If I test some “beginners” and then come back to them in a few years, it doesn’t show anything unless I can define what a beginner is. This way, I can show that personality changes – and grows? – over a period of time, thus showing over years what cannot be shown from one week to the next. Take eyesight for example. No-one wakes up suddenly short-sighted, and from day to day, you don’t notice any change. But three years down the line, when you can’t read a number plate, you’ll wonder when it started happening. That’s a negative example, but I’m thinking that martial arts may be a positive one. If not for everyone, then it may be for some people.

 

[bluekey88]

Hi guys. My thanks for your many replies. I’m sorry that it’s taken a long time to get back to you all, but I was best man at a wedding over the weekend. Throw in a UK bank holiday and it’s been a while since I’ve been able to get online without thinking to myself that I need to get some work done!

I’d like to pick up on a few points. Bluekey88, I certainly appreciate your point about acquired skill levels. I remember back to my first driving lessons for example. Oh dear, oh dear… And Lynne, my congratulations to you on starting martial arts, and following your daughter with your eyes wide open. I’m very much impressed and I hope you stick at it. You make an excellent point here:

Some people cut the mustard, some don’t. How can we predict this?

Another interesting point taken by several people is that you never stop being a beginner. I like this too, and I’d like to say how much I admire this line of thought as well. I’m not the most knowledgeable martial artist (a lapsed “beginner” in truth), but I can best relate to this point by comparing it to when I started my postgraduate degree. Suddenly a whole new world opens up when you realise all the things that you *haven’t* been taught and as such, you realise what you don’t know. Healthy in any point in life, and I’m impressed so many people here think that way. Thanks for your thoughts.

To take this point:

In real life, I totally agree. But my professional purpose is to take two groups of people and compare them. Not on how they fight, but in how increasing knowledge of the martial arts can aid – or not - their ability to cope with the pressures of modern life. After all, unlike any other animal human beings have the capacity to stress about things that probably won’t happen! That alone can burn people out, but why some and not others? Scientifically, you have to be able to define your group or you’ll never get published. If I test some “beginners” and then come back to them in a few years, it doesn’t show anything unless I can define what a beginner is. This way, I can show that personality changes – and grows? – over a period of time, thus showing over years what cannot be shown from one week to the next. Take eyesight for example. No-one wakes up suddenly short-sighted, and from day to day, you don’t notice any change. But three years down the line, when you can’t read a number plate, you’ll wonder when it started happening. That’s a negative example, but I’m thinking that martial arts may be a positive one. If not for everyone, then it may be for some people.

Based on that, it sounds like the question you are asking is not "what are the differences between beginner martial artists and expert martial artists?" but rather, "does extensive martial arts training generalize to skills/protefctive factors to deal with stress?" In other words, do experienced martial artists deal with daily stress better than others? If so, then in what ways (is this a global thing or does MA practice/experience help in some ways but not in others?)

Another good wustion then is, is MA practice superior or inferior to other activities in imparting protective factors in relation to stress? Are there differences between practicing various arts?

This is an interesting topic, but there's a lot there. I'm not sure it should start at the level of what makes a beginner or expert...you could simply make a designation that someone with x amount of time training and a certain minimum rank within an art is an "expert"...say, 3-4 years and at least the equivalent of 1st dan or assistant teaching credential. It's arbitrary but it's a start point. Then you've got to account for differences in various arts (TKD, BJJ, Tai chi, etc.) and account for that. Then with a large anough sample, how are you going to measure how they cope with stress? What kind of stress? What's your definition of 'stress'?

I'm really interested to see what your research turns up...Please keep us posted.

Peace,
Erik

 

[CaffeineKing]

Exactly BlueKey!

Based on that, it sounds like the question you are asking is not "what are the differences between beginner martial artists and expert martial artists?" but rather, "does extensive martial arts training generalize to skills/protective factors to deal with stress?" In other words, do experienced martial artists deal with daily stress better than others

What we've got to do is make a decision on just where to start and where to cut off. Is a "beginner" a white belt for example? Or someone who comes once a week for three months? When does someone think to themselves, "Hmmmmm, I think I'll stick with this?" and so make that commitment. I think I commeneted myself on the possible differecnes between martial arts. Speaking for myself - so feel free to jump in guys! - my impression is that some martial arts are easier to pick up than others. I'm not saying they are easier to master, but it seems easier for the total newbie to thrown a half-decent punch and even to block, than it is to twist and throw. So is it even possible to compare a sample across different martial arts? I've got a Hapkido contact or two (well, one!) here in the UK and if I ever got round to researching the beneficial effects that Hapkido may have in promoting greater individual "robustness" to external stressors, can that be taken as a thumbs up to other martial arts too? Scientifically, no it can't.

What's your definition of 'stress'?

Now *that* is the killer question. We're on to Stress-Diathesis here - Stress and Vulnerability in other words. Is a really tough individual trying to cope with a terrible situation as stressed as someone a little less robust, but with less on their plate. It's subjective, and that's a huge psychological cop-out, I know.

My real area is tinnitus (ringing in the ears). A perfect example of a minor irritant that you have no control over. Radio too loud? Turn it down. If it's not yours, leave the room. But if that little tinny stereo leaves the room with you and there is no escape, if will become stressful. A chronic stressor, like back pain or unemployment. These are the stressors that vulnerable people may be able to be trained to face.

 

[bluekey88]

Ok, so, assuming you can nail down a concrete definition of stress (at least some up with ways to measure outcomes), and assuming you're looking at a longitudinal study.

Perhaps you can get a few schools to agree to give some sort of consent form to new students, fill out some basic info. Then periodically test them every few months to measure whatever characteristics you're looking at. Some students will only stay a short time, others will stay longer. you cna compare within and between groups hte outcome measures. The big confound being you're not necessarily looking at people who started and ended at the same time.

Another idea is doing just snapshot sample of LOTS of martial artists and LOTS of non-martial artists. take your measures and compare people with different levels of experience (and I really think length of time training is the strongest variable here to tease out expereince). This would miss out on the growth process you might see in the logitudinal study.

Another idea would be to get an MA instructor to agree to do a class for you and then you get a group of people to agree to take the class (funding becomes the issue..but not necessarily an insurmountable one) and you take your measure of this group and compare them over time based on rates of attendance and such. At the end you can look at performance on benchmark skills (as defined by the instrucotr) to assess degree of expertise and compare that to your outcome measures.

peace,
Erik

 

[Brian S]

A beginner is no longer a beginner when he can teach the technique properly and transmit the message clearly to others. He may be a beginner at other things though.

 

[hogstooth]

This is a good question. Is it the knowledge, skill or fighting prowess that makes you an expert?
There is one primary difference that I will point out and can be seen when compairing a novice to an expert. It is mushin, "no mind". As a beginner starting out the techniques a foreign and they have to be practiced many times for them to become crisp, sharp and powerful. The longer that a student studies the arts the more engrained the techniques become. Call it muscle memory. After a while the techniques become second nature just like walking. At the pinacle you move to counter or block without thinking about it, almost as if your body has a will of it's own.
Another example is the way in which a technique is performed. As a beginner you learn each technique the way it is taught to you. After years of doing it over and over again, you develop your own signature to that move. That is you put your own twist on it. This is caused by a MAist years of learning what works and what doesn't work. You can literally see the difference between someone who has been studying for years and a beginner in something as simple as a Jodan Uke (upper block). The power, the whole body put into it and the slight difference in the way they perform the technique.

 

[JWLuiza]

You could use cognitive maps of key concepts in martial arts and create a congruency benchmark for expert/non-expert to create your dividing line.

 

[qwksilver61]

I tend to agree with Mr Celtic never, seems to be a pretty good answer,most Masters end up at the simple beginning....Mas Oyama for example,the older he was ,utilized fewer techniques to achieve an end to the means....

 

[wrc619]

Our Instructor has a saying. "A black belt is just an advanced beginner." The senior rank in our art is Professor. The belt is white with a red stripe. Once you can flow and not have to paint by numbers for techniques, I feel you are no longer a beginner.

 

[tshadowchaser]

The question of “ do only the toughest survive” was made and in some systems that may be true. The exercises, and physical contact may drive out those that are afraid of getting hurt and those that can not let their mind take over when their body wants only to stop. A rank beginner in one of these classes has to make up his mind that he will do what is asked and keep trying till he can do it without much difficulty. An expert in this class has gone through the process and his body and mind have grown used to the routine and now he is able to endure. It took that expert years to get where he is but his body hardened and his mind learned to push him beyond where he normally would have stopped.
There are more than a few on this forum that some call experts but I am sure the majority of them would tell you that the more they learn the more they realize there is still so much more to learn. Thusly I fell most consider themselves beginners searching for knowledge.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Our Instructor has a saying. "A black belt is just an advanced beginner."

We have a similar saying in our Dojo; 'A black belt is just a dirty white belt.'

It is my honest belief that the older we get as MAists, the more perverted we become!:lfao:

 

[Juggernaut]

I remember when I received my black belt in 1996 my Sensei said to me "now you are ready to learn everything the right way"...

He also called the black belt level the Mastery level. He used the term mastery in denote a never ending quest in the arts rather than arriving at being a Master...