Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[Steve]

If we compare karate ranks with school grades, I think it will look something like this:

White-brown kyu's, elementary school K-7th grade
1st black, middle school
2nd black, high school
3rd black, AA degree
4th black, BA degree
5th black, Masters
6th black, PhD candidate
7th black, PhD
8th black, Fellowships
9th black, Professor Emeritus

IMO, this puts things into perspective taking the long view. A kid just going into middle school may think he's grown up, but soon finds he's just a small fish in the bigger pond.

taken at face value, it seems skewed low. I mean, I don’t think many middle schoolers who think they’re grown up. starting with BB as a high school graduate and work up from there makes more sense.

That said, The academic analogy breaks down pretty quickly. There are external standards that calibrate education. This could possibly be a useful analogy within a particular school, but that’s about it.

 

[Steve]

It‘s not the first time I hear or read something along those lines indeed. But since PhotonGuy reported that view without disagreeing with it, it seems he agrees with it and can be held accountable. So I would like to know what he did before black belt.

So, if we don’t explicitly disagree with something, we implicitly agree with it? that sounds exhausting.

then let the record show that, absent evidence to the contrary, I disagree with everything.

 

[Hot Lunch]

taken at face value, it seems skewed low. I mean, I don’t think many middle schoolers who think they’re grown up. starting with BB as a high school graduate and work up from there makes more sense.

I wanted to say the same thing at first. Your very first academic credential is awarded to you when you complete high school, which would put that on par with shodan.

 

[isshinryuronin]

taken at face value, it seems skewed low. I mean, I don’t think many middle schoolers who think they’re grown up. starting with BB as a high school graduate and work up from there makes more sense.

As I said in my post, I was taking the long view. If you look at a 35-year MA journey, the years spent in elementary school is only about 20%, a fairly short time. Just a little longer than it takes to get black belt in many schools.

I do think that many 6th or 7th graders, being the big fish in their "pond" on the cusp of getting into middle school, see themselves as being grown up. A lot of 12-year-olds would argue they are no longer kids, at least in their minds.

There are external standards that calibrate education.

I mentioned several such calibrations: Graduating elementary, middle and high school. Earning an AA degree or passing the SAT to go directly to university. Graduating with a BA. Exam to get into grad school, earning masters, being accepted for doctorate program, getting PhD thesis accepted... This isn't an engineering discussion of fine variances, but a general metaphor to get an idea across.

I wanted to say the same thing at first. Your very first academic credential is awarded to you when you complete high school, which would put that on par with shodan.

It was not only the time element I was using for comparison, but the relative level of expertise achieved as well. No two different systems will correlate accurately, but I think what I presented was reasonable for the purpose.

 

[Steve]

I did hear my primary instructor say this on multiple occasions, and it actually doesn't make much sense in that system (where BB is full instructor rank). I think he was just parroting something he thought was "deep", without giving it as much thought as it deserved. There are definitely systems where I think it is true enough, at least in concept.

It’s a harmless cliche to suggest there’s always more to learn. I don’t know how deep it is, but i get where it’s coming from.

As I said in my post, I was taking the long view. If you look at a 35-year MA journey, the years spent in elementary school is only about 20%, a fairly short time. Just a little longer than it takes to get black belt in many schools.

yeah, I just don’t think it works very well. It infantilizes most martial artists by comparing them to children. Whether that’s what you intend or not. Not a big deal.

I do think that many 6th or 7th graders, being the big fish in their "pond" on the cusp of getting into middle school, see themselves as being grown up. A lot of 12-year-olds would argue they are no longer kids, at least in their minds.

Some maybe. I don’t think many. At least, not the kids I’ve ever been around. High schoolers… sure. Many are attending college classes, working, driving, and beginning that transition to adulthood. 12 year olds are literally prepubescent.

Once again, it’s not a huge deal. Just something that stood out to me. While not worth arguing about, it seemed odd enough to warrant a comment.

I mentioned several such calibrations: Graduating elementary, middle and high school. Earning an AA degree or passing the SAT to go directly to university. Graduating with a BA. Exam to get into grad school, earning masters, being accepted for doctorate program, getting PhD thesis accepted... This isn't an engineering discussion of fine variances, but a general metaphor to get an idea across.

Exactly. Most martial arts styles lack any kind of external calibration. That’s a meaningful difference between education and martial arts, because the calibration of education is intrinsic to why it has value. For example, a phd from a school that lacks accreditation isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on.

It was not only the time element I was using for comparison, but the relative level of expertise achieved as well. No two different systems will correlate accurately, but I think what I presented was reasonable for the purpose.

Sounds good. I get the education analogy even if I don’t really agree with it without some tweaks.

Personally, I think for education to work as analogy, martial artists are more like career students. Most scholars graduate and then transition into some kind of career in which they apply what they’ve learned. Career students stay in school. Many Martial artists never “graduate”. They just keep registering for more classes.

 

[Leviathan]

So, if we don’t explicitly disagree with something, we implicitly agree with it? that sounds exhausting.

then let the record show that, absent evidence to the contrary, I disagree with everything.

Scenario 1: If you say „the earth is flat“ I’ll ask you to back up your claim. And yes, you can be held accountable for that since you made it your own statement.

Scenario 2: Saying „according to the flat earth society the earth is flat“ is another statement and shows that it is not your opinion but you’re just reporting someone else’s speech. That doesn‘t make you accountable.

We were in scenario 1 here so my question was legit.

Man, why do I have to explain ground school logic???

 

[Steve]

Scenario 1: If you say „the earth is flat“ I’ll ask you to back up your claim. And yes, you can be held accountable for that since you made it your own statement.

Scenario 2: Saying „according to the flat earth society the earth is flat“ is another statement and shows that it is not your opinion but you’re just reporting someone else’s speech. That doesn‘t make you accountable.

We were in scenario 1 here so my question was legit.

Man, why do I have to explain ground school logic???

I’m all for accountability, and also I think you’ve missed the point. I think this thread is more scenario 2 and you're trying to make it scenario 1.

As an aside, what is a ground school? I actually would appreciate you explaining what ground school logic is. That’s a funny one.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The Ancient Egyptians were able to determine that the Earth was round by looking at shadows and stars and all that, and it's highly unlikely that the average human being would have been able to figure that out on their own. Hell, I don't even know the specifics of those methods myself, hence why I said "shadows and stars and all that." So how does the average everyday person today know that the Earth is round? Because our 1st grade teachers told us. And what does a 1st grader know to challenge his teacher on that? Absolutely nothing.

Martial arts training is no different. Hence, why I might debate with someone whether or not "black belt is the beginning," but I don't think it reflects negatively on anyone's character to repeat what they've been taught.

 

[Steve]

The Ancient Egyptians were able to determine that the Earth was round by looking at shadows and stars and all that, and it's highly unlikely that the average human being would have been able to figure that out on their own. Hell, I don't even know the specifics of those methods myself, hence why I said "shadows and stars and all that." So how does the average everyday person today know that the Earth is round? Because our 1st grade teachers told us. And what does a 1st grader know to challenge his teacher on that? Absolutely nothing.

Martial arts training is no different. Hence, why I might debate with someone whether or not "black belt is the beginning," but I don't think it reflects negatively on anyone's character to repeat what they've been taught.

I’d say that some martial artists are more similar to flat earthers, where in spite of considerable evidence to the contrary, they believe something that has little credibility or support.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I’d say that some martial artists are more similar to flat earthers, where in spite of considerable evidence to the contrary, they believe something that has little credibility or support.

True, and this reminds me of why it was a horrible idea to compare the statement of "black belt is the beginning" to "the Earth is flat."

The former is a discussion about an abstract concept, whereas the latter is a hard science.

Whether we agree or not with the statement that "black belt is the beginning," I think we can all see where it does make sense and where it doesn't.

 

[isshinryuronin]

"black belt is the beginning"

In the course of my 58 years in TMA, there is no way I can describe the point I got my 1st degree (only about 7% into my journey) as anything but the beginning. It's all a matter of perspective and understanding the potential length of the journey and what it may hold in store for us.

 

[Hot Lunch]

In the course of my 58 years in TMA, there is no way I can describe the point I got my 1st degree (only about 7% into my journey) as anything but the beginning. It's all a matter of perspective and understanding the potential length of the journey and what it may hold in store for us.

And this is why I described it as a discussion about an abstract concept.

But if others here agree that black belt is the beginning, don't let PhotonGuy be the only one out there taking a beating for saying it.

 

[Leviathan]

I’m all for accountability, and also I think you’ve missed the point. I think this thread is more scenario 2 and you're trying to make it scenario 1.

Nope, you got it all wrong. Proof needed? Here it is:

Definitely scenario 1: He claims it himself. So he is accountable for it and should be able to back it up when questionned about it.

As an aside, what is a ground school? I actually would appreciate you explaining what ground school logic is. That’s a funny one.

Sorry, I mixed up languages: I meant elementary / primary school, the one that usually starts when you're about 6 years old.

 

[Steve]

Nope, you got it all wrong. Proof needed? Here it is:

View attachment 31699
Definitely scenario 1: He claims it himself. So he is accountable for it and should be able to back it up when questionned about it.

Not trying to be snarky at all, here. But did you read the first post? It’s clear that the user isn’t taking an absolute stand as you suggest.

Sorry, I mixed up languages: I meant elementary / primary school, the one that usually starts when you're about 6 years old.

No sweat. I think I have a handle on 6 year old logic. 16 year old logic? Well that’s a different story altogether.

 

[drop bear]

The beginning of something new?

I mean if we are going to wax philosophical.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The beginning of something new?

I mean if we are going to wax philosophical.

Can't you say that about every belt? Hell, wouldn't that even be more applicable to lower belts than black?

 

[drop bear]

Can't you say that about every belt? Hell, wouldn't that even be more applicable to lower belts than black?

You could. But the idea would be that black belt gives you the grounding to apply the system. Applying the system is a new beginning of understanding the system.

So because everyone wants to relate this to academia.

You get a degree. Then you get a job.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So what you did before black belt was nothing?

No, why do you say that?

 

[PhotonGuy]

If we compare karate ranks with school grades, I think it will look something like this:

White-brown kyu's, elementary school K-7th grade
1st black, middle school
2nd black, high school
3rd black, AA degree
4th black, BA degree
5th black, Masters
6th black, PhD candidate
7th black, PhD
8th black, Fellowships
9th black, Professor Emeritus

IMO, this puts things into perspective taking the long view. A kid just going into middle school may think he's grown up, but soon finds he's just a small fish in the bigger pond.

I would put first degree black belt as equivalent to a bachelor's degree in college because, from my experience, once you make black belt you're expected to teach, at least at the dojos I've been to. A middle school student is not going to be a teacher, to be a teacher you at least need a bachelor's degree.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I would put first degree black belt as equivalent to a bachelor's degree in college because, from my experience, once you make black belt you're expected to teach, at least at the dojos I've been to. A middle school student is not going to be a teacher, to be a teacher you at least need a bachelor's degree.

At my dojo, that's not the case. In ISKF, you have to be a nidan to start the instructor training program, and a sandan to be certified as an instructor. So you don't become an instructor solely by virtue of rank; it's an additional qualification that rank simply makes you eligible to seek.

At my last dojo, all black belts taught. However, shodan and nidan taught under the direction of a sandan or above. They didn't get keys to the dojo to run the place on their own. Only sandan and above got that.

So, at best, shodan (and possibly nidan) aren't degreed teachers. They're teacher's aides, or college students (who don't have their bachelor's yet) who are getting the required classroom experience necessary to earn credits towards their degree.