Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[PhotonGuy]

No. I'm an academic counselor and adviser working in higher education. And a doctoral student in educational psychology.

Wow that's quite an accomplishment, I've got a degree in psychology myself although not a doctorate.

 

[Hot Lunch]

In addition to responses I've made earlier, I would also like to point out that just because you're wearing a black belt doesn't mean you're of the highest rank

Who TF said ANY of that?

and in fact black isn't even always the highest color. There are styles with higher colors such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu they've got the red belt which is above the black belt. When you first start wearing the black belt you are a first degree black belt or 1st dan and after that there's 2nd dan, 3rd dan, and so forth usually all the way up to 10th dan, so when you look at all the dan ranks you could say that first degree black belt is a rather low rank.

...blah, blah, blah - a rant attempting to correct a claim that was never made. GTFOH

So how is learning to ride a bike different from learning most other stuff, including martial arts?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Who TF said ANY of that?

Well when you mention that instructors want students to look beyond the black belt, I just wanted to point out that there are higher ranks, and in some cases higher colors.

...blah, blah, blah - a rant attempting to correct a claim that was never made. GTFOH

See above.

You made a claim, you should be able to explain it.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Well when you mention that instructors want students to look beyond the black belt, I just wanted to point out that there are higher ranks, and in some cases higher colors.

See above.

Do you really think you're teaching me something?

You made a claim, you should be able to explain it.

If you need that to be explained, it's not worth my time.

 

[geezer]

In addition to responses I've made earlier, I would also like to point out that ...

Do you really think you're teaching me something?
If you need that to be explained, it's not worth my time.

Hot Lunch, ...getting a little hot under the collar? Take a breath and consider this is an open forum, and not everybody is on the same wavelength. Photon has his unique way of seeing things. That's very clear to anyone who's been here a long time. I'm convinced that he's sincere, and not trying to offend. If his posts annoy you too much, I can understand, but there's no reason to get nasty (see post #582).

Consider your own words in bold type above ^ ...and when you've just had enough, try the ignore option.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Do you really think you're teaching me something?

I never said I was trying to teach you anything.

If you need that to be explained, it's not worth my time.

If you can't or won't explain it than your claim means nothing.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Wow that's quite an accomplishment, I've got a degree in psychology myself although not a doctorate.

Meh. I wouldn't be too impressed. We'll see if I ever actually get the thing. It's a long enough road--when you're doing it part-time, in addition to a full-time job and a family--that it makes getting a black belt look like the express checkout at the supermarket.

Anyway, all of that was simply to say that, in my experience, students stating an educational goal doesn't necessarily improve their odds of earning it. There's a lot of processes you can't see running in the background that are hard to see but much stronger determinants of success. Processes I've been studying lately (e.g., motivation, self-efficacy, etc.).

 

[Prince_Alarming]

The more you worry about things like this, the less you'll understand them. I'd call that a contradiction.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The more you worry about things like this, the less you'll understand them. I'd call that a contradiction.

Some schools engender far different attitudes towards the black belt than others, which can affect whether or not the black belt becomes a motivator for the students. This is one of the reasons why I don't judge people who are motivated by it. If we're gonna judge someone, then it should be the owner of the school. They're the ones who set that tone.

Neither of the karate dojos I've trained at gave that self-contradiction.

At my last dojo, rank meant something. And they had no problem coming right out and saying it. And black belts were clearly a "privileged class" who did far more teaching than focusing on their own training. Oh, and if you're not there to get that next belt, you're wasting everyone's time.

At the dojo where I currently train, the discussion of "rank" really isn't a thing. Unless it's in the context of testing, or lower belt ranks being instructed to do a particular kata while the higher ranks work on theirs. With the exception of the instructor leading the class, all other black belts are "one of the fellas" who are there to train just like everyone else, down to the white belts.

This isn't to say that this self-contradiction doesn't exist within the same four walls. But, in my estimation, this self-contradiction mostly comes from involvement in the greater martial arts community, where you're dealing with varying attitudes towards the black belt from people who train in different schools.

 

[Leviathan]

Well that's why I would stay after making black belt. As I said, in terms of developing knowledge and skill black belt is just the beginning.

So what you did before black belt was nothing?

 

[Hot Lunch]

So what you did before black belt was nothing?

In all fairness to PhotonGuy, he's not the one who coined that saying ("black belt is the beginning"). So I don't think it's fair that he be held accountable for having to explain it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If we compare karate ranks with school grades, I think it will look something like this:

White-brown kyu's, elementary school K-7th grade
1st black, middle school
2nd black, high school
3rd black, AA degree
4th black, BA degree
5th black, Masters
6th black, PhD candidate
7th black, PhD
8th black, Fellowships
9th black, Professor Emeritus

IMO, this puts things into perspective taking the long view. A kid just going into middle school may think he's grown up, but soon finds he's just a small fish in the bigger pond.

 

[Hot Lunch]

If we compare karate ranks with school grades, I think it will look something like this:

White-brown kyu's, elementary school K-7th grade
1st black, middle school
2nd black, high school
3rd black, AA degree
4th black, BA degree
5th black, Masters
6th black, PhD candidate
7th black, PhD
8th black, Fellowships
9th black, Professor Emeritus

IMO, this puts things into perspective taking the long view. A kid just going into middle school may think he's grown up, but soon finds he's just a small fish in the bigger pond.

In some ways, it can be compared to schools; in other ways - and probably depending on the style - it may be more appropriate to compare martial arts belt ranks with rungs on the corporate ladder.

For example, literally anyone and everyone who is able to come up with the tuition money can educate their way up to a doctorate - even if it's 100% of the population (of course, there are only but so many STEM jobs; and floors will always still need to be mopped, and burgers will always still need to be flipped).

However, on the corporate ladder, there's only one CEO and below that, a specific number of other C-level executives, and then a specific number of presidents and vice presidents.

I understand that there are some arts and associations where literally everyone can become a 10th dan if they meet the requirements all the way up to that rank; whereas in others, high dan ranks indicate leadership positions above the dojo level, which means that there's pretty much a cap on the number of honorary dan grades in practice, even if not on paper.

 

[isshinryuronin]

or example, literally anyone and everyone who is able to come up with the tuition money can educate their way up to a doctorate - even if it's 100% of the population

I understand that there are some arts and associations where literally everyone can become a 10th dan

Disagree. A high proportion of college students do not graduate. To get into a Master's degree program I had to take and pass the GRE (Graduate Record Exam) where only the top 1/3 of BA graduates taking the test were accepted. I think there are certain requirements to be accepted as a PhD candidate. Then the doctoral thesis has to be accepted.

I don't know of any legitimate TMA where everyone can get a 10th dan. By popular definition, only the head of the system or assoc. is that rank. Of course, anyone can just start their own assoc. and be a Grand Master. It's like there's only 1 CEO per corp.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Disagree. A high proportion of college students do not graduate. To get into a Master's degree program I had to take and pass the GRE (Graduate Record Exam) where only the top 1/3 of BA graduates taking the test were accepted. I think there are certain requirements to be accepted as a PhD candidate. Then the doctoral thesis has to be accepted.

I didn't say everyone that everyone who attempts to get a doctorate will get it. I said that everyone can. As in, there is no cap on the number of people who can earn doctorates.

I don't know of any legitimate TMA where everyone can get a 10th dan. By popular definition, only the head of the system or assoc. is that rank. Of course, anyone can just start their own assoc. and be a Grand Master. It's like there's only 1 CEO per corp.

I've heard of American Kenpo being criticized for its high number of 10th dans; in fact, there are threads here on MTF about it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I've heard of American Kenpo being criticized for its high number of 10th dans; in fact, there are threads here on MTF about it.

There are many kenpo organizations. The splintering began even before Parker passed away and grew after. But to be sure, Parker-trained guys who are now 10th's are extremely talented. All of his lower black belts, too, in the late 60's - mid 70's were excellent technicians.

 

[Hot Lunch]

There are many kenpo organizations. The splintering began even before Parker passed away and grew after. But to be sure, Parker-trained guys who are now 10th's are extremely talented. All of his lower black belts, too, in the late 60's - mid 70's were excellent technicians.

There was a post from 2003 that listed 18 10th dans in IKKO. There are large karate organizations that have existed since the 1950's that haven't had half as many 10th dans EVER, much less active at the same time.

 

[Leviathan]

In all fairness to PhotonGuy, he's not the one who coined that saying ("black belt is the beginning"). So I don't think it's fair that he be held accountable for having to explain it.

It‘s not the first time I hear or read something along those lines indeed. But since PhotonGuy reported that view without disagreeing with it, it seems he agrees with it and can be held accountable. So I would like to know what he did before black belt.

 

[Hot Lunch]

It‘s not the first time I hear or read something along those lines indeed. But since PhotonGuy reported that view without disagreeing with it, it seems he agrees with it and can be held accountable. So I would like to know what he did before black belt.

I don't agree with the saying myself, and I've discussed that with PhotoGuy. But when I express disagreement with it, I limit to stating why I disagree with the statement. I don't try to "put him on the spot" for it.

Bear in mind that this line is repeated by high ranking yudansha that are well-known throughout the martial arts community, so it's only natural for many people to see themselves as lacking the wherewithal to debate this.

I've never heard my sensei say this, but I have heard him compare colored belts to the act of acquiring tools and building materials, and black belt to the act of doing the construction work itself.

Is this something I can accept? Sure.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't agree with the saying myself, and I've discussed that with PhotoGuy. But when I express disagreement with it, I limit to stating why I disagree with the statement. I don't try to "put him on the spot" for it.

Bear in mind that this line is repeated by high ranking yudansha that are well-known throughout the martial arts community, so it's only natural for many people to see themselves as lacking the wherewithal to debate this.

I've never heard my sensei say this, but I have heard him compare colored belts to the act of acquiring tools and building materials, and black belt to the act of doing the construction work itself.

Is this something I can accept? Sure.

I did hear my primary instructor say this on multiple occasions, and it actually doesn't make much sense in that system (where BB is full instructor rank). I think he was just parroting something he thought was "deep", without giving it as much thought as it deserved. There are definitely systems where I think it is true enough, at least in concept.