Well you wouldn't be leading class at shodan but you would sometimes be an assistant instructor, sometimes even at brown belt I was expected to help with some of the teaching. You do have a point though, that first degree black belt would be more like the equivalent of somebody in college who hasn't gotten a degree yet but who might be interning to become a teacher and so forth.
Contradictions In The Martial Arts
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
Because you said black belt is only the beginning. So before the beginning is... nothing.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Name one example where before the beginning was nothing?
Can we say that black belt mean you can train MA for the rest of your life without any teacher?
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
Leviathan isn't making that claim. He's accusing PhotonGuy of making it.
Everything! Everything starts with the beginning.
"Accusing" is a big word. I'm not pressing charges or anything along those lines. I just asked him to back up his claim that black belt is the beginning.
I have been in several dojos and done several martial arts and nowhere did they give me a black belt on my first training (and I am no exception). So saying black belt is the beginning is simply wrong. From white belt to black belt you learn a lot.
Well the way I look at it, when you're a black belt you're a "serious" beginner. From my experience, most students are going to drop out before reaching black belt. There are different levels of being a beginner, you can be a beginner who is just starting out or you can be a more advanced beginner. Being a black belt would be like being a more advanced beginner so all the ranks before it would be earlier stages of being a beginner but the fact of the matter is that first degree black belt is a rather low rank when you look at all the dan ranks and in Japan the rank of first degree black belt is called Shodan which is literally translated as "low man," so there you have it.
The fact of the matter is that in the martial arts no matter what rank you've got or even if you want to throw rank out the window and just look at knowledge and skill, no matter how much you know and how skilled you are you can always learn more and you can always get better. So even the really high dan ranks can be seen as "beginner" ranks depending on your point of view.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
The average attrition rate for schools of all styles in the US is around 60%, nearly all of this being in the green belt and below range. There is always going to be a high percentage of people who try martial arts and realize it is not for them. No harm, no foul.
My source of this data is from a Lot of internet research and talking to the schools owners I know, roughly 200 schools. From my own school data, it is quite accurate.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
I'm not sure if I disagree with this statement, or if I think it's just a bad choice of words. If one becomes a "serious beginner" upon earning their black belt, this implies that they were just screwing around and goofing off up to that point.
"Advanced beginner" is an oxymoron.
In some judo associations, white belt is not designated with a numerical kyu rank, and is simply referred to as "novice." The implication here is that upon reaching yellow belt, one is no longer a novice.
Are you sure about that?
My argument against black belt being a beginner is two-fold.
1. Karate existed before the belt system.
2. When the belt system was invented, it wasn't even for karate.
So before the belt system was adopted by karate, where was the line drawn at which comes a "serious" or "advanced" beginner?
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
This conversation was becoming tiresome, but this is an interesting question:
Being introduced to Japan's public schools by Funakoshi, karate again had to conform. School means curriculum and grades. Karate, then, also needed to have a printed, set curriculum and some sort of grading system. Funakoshi had been teaching since at least 1910, maybe earlier. Yet, he did not award any black belts till 1924 - he got it in the school system in 1922. So, based on all the above, it seems karate being introduced to the Japanese school system was the precipitating factor to its kyu/dan system.
Before this (1900), in Okinawa, karate was still taught in secret, or at least it was restricted to a few handpicked students taught 1 on 1. Karate people were a tiny, tiny group of people. The instructors had intimate knowledge of each student and knew exactly each student's skills and ability. There was no need for curriculum or grades. For schools, information had to be presented in discreet packets, digital-like. Before this, it could be taught in an informal continuum, analog-like.
Still, there was a point where a student would be recognized as "advanced." This was done in the form of him receiving a teaching license by the master, authorizing that he was skilled enough to teach other students. There came to be three levels of shogo (which has been discussed in this forum a short time ago). This largely sufficed in Okinawa until after WWII when they fully accepted the Japanese karate rank system after 20 years.
I don't think there was a line as such. There was not any need for one. The main purpose of the belt system was to adapt to Japan's structured and organized way of doing things. Their other openly taught MA, judo, had belts, so karate had to have them too if it wished to be accepted.
Being introduced to Japan's public schools by Funakoshi, karate again had to conform. School means curriculum and grades. Karate, then, also needed to have a printed, set curriculum and some sort of grading system. Funakoshi had been teaching since at least 1910, maybe earlier. Yet, he did not award any black belts till 1924 - he got it in the school system in 1922. So, based on all the above, it seems karate being introduced to the Japanese school system was the precipitating factor to its kyu/dan system.
Before this (1900), in Okinawa, karate was still taught in secret, or at least it was restricted to a few handpicked students taught 1 on 1. Karate people were a tiny, tiny group of people. The instructors had intimate knowledge of each student and knew exactly each student's skills and ability. There was no need for curriculum or grades. For schools, information had to be presented in discreet packets, digital-like. Before this, it could be taught in an informal continuum, analog-like.
Still, there was a point where a student would be recognized as "advanced." This was done in the form of him receiving a teaching license by the master, authorizing that he was skilled enough to teach other students. There came to be three levels of shogo (which has been discussed in this forum a short time ago). This largely sufficed in Okinawa until after WWII when they fully accepted the Japanese karate rank system after 20 years.
I understand your point but you're overstretching the meaning of the word "beginner" to such an extent that it has become meaningless as you apply it to at least 99,999% of the practicioners. It's as absurd as stating Norway and Iceland are southern countries because they are not the north pole...
Accept the idea that even experts can still learn something and the concept of "intermediate". Life has more to offer than 99,999% white and 0,001% black.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
Agreed. These are the predecessors to the belt/kyu/dan system in karate:
- the game of Go
- the black band for Japanese swimmers
- belt rank system invented by Jigoro Kano for judo
In ALL off these, dan ranking and/or authorization to wear a black belt or band was reserved for those were considered advanced. Not beginners. In fact, this is explicitly stated in the rules/policies for all three.
I've said this before, but I don't believe that "black belt is the beginning" in karate refers to what you know or practice in the curriculum. It likely has more to do with instilling shoshin into karateka and/or reminding students that they don't "graduate" and stop training at black belt.
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isshinryuronin
Senior Master
"Shoshin." Sho(o) - beginning; shin - mind. A great concept for everyone throughout their lives.
By first dan black belt (3-5 years of study) one has learned all the basics and most of the principles, maybe 80% of the system. But that missing 20% may take another 10-20 years to get down.
That 20% or other numeric representation of MA level is misleading in that its effect is disproportionately greater than its quantitative label. An 8th dan is more than 20% better than a 1st. That 20% is what makes the 80% work like it's supposed to and realize its full potential and leads to understanding what the "art" really is.
Saying that "black belt is the beginning" doesn't refer to the relative quantity of what you've already learned but sets you up to begin learning that all-important remaining 20%. It's more than just the attitude of "shoshin," it has concrete and practical meaning and benefit.
It is, but it also reasonably encapsulates a concept. "Beginner" is not being used there to refer to a single point in time, but as a term to describe a period of time. The "advanced" puts them at the far end of that period of development. The way I read it is the same way I'd look at a "beginner" class in anything (like some of the beginner classes in coding I've attended). Some of the beginners are more advanced than others, though the class is still a good fit for them.
I don't think the fact that a different way of looking at things existed before belts really says anything about whether BB is used to denote "beginner".
I think the issue here is one of semantics. If we expect "beginner" to literally mean someone who is barely getting started, it's hard to see how BB would fit. But I think the folks who refer to BB as the beginning are really just saying that the student is finally reaching a point where they can start to understand (not just do) the MA, so the they're a beginner all over, with a new way to look at the art. I know that for a lot of the folks I trained with (myself included), BB was where we started to shed the Dunning-Kruger effect, because we finally understood well enough to see what we didn't understand.
From what I've seen many people who get into the martial arts will drop out at white belt or yellow belt. They will try it out just to see what its like and decide its not their thing and drop out as white belts, or they might go up one belt after white belt, usually a yellow belt, and drop out then. That way they will have gotten their first belt after white belt and they will drop out after that, Im only speaking from my own experience and observations.
It means that they plan to stick with it long term.
That would depend on the association as there is much variance between associations but consider this, in school when you're in the ninth grade, a freshman in high school, are you a beginner? You could say that you're a beginner in high school since it's the lowest grade in high school even if you're not a beginner in school in general, you've already been through kindergarten and then grades 1 through 8, so being in the ninth grade can or cannot be seen as being a beginner depending on your point of view, but it could be said that ninth grade is a new beginning.
An important thing to also take into account is that when you look at all the ranks including all the Dan ranks, 1st Dan which is First Degree Black Belt, is still a rather low rank.
True, although we're talking about how Karate is practiced and taught now, not back then.
Yes it is well known in the martial arts world that Kano who taught Judo gave black belts to his more advanced students back in the 1800s and that many other arts adopted that system, but the story of using colored belts to denote rank goes back way before that. The uniform would consist of a white sash that had the purpose of holding the jacket closed and since the sash was not washed it would get dirty over time so more advanced students could be identified by having darker sashes. This goes back way before Kano started out with the black belts for his more advanced students.
I wouldn't know much about how karate was taught back then, at least in regards to when one was considered a serious or advanced beginner, since Im mostly familiar with karate as its taught today with the modern colored belt system in place, although I would think they might put you in different groups back then depending on your skill level just as they do with sports today that don't have any kind of rank that's indicated by something you wear, just an educated guess on my part.
I would also like to point out that Bruce Lee, in his style of Jeet Kune Do, did not use belts but rather used patches to denote rank. The lowest patch and the highest patch were identical, both were just an empty circle. The idea was that when you reached the highest patch you had taken a circular path of learning and had reached a new beginning.
Well there have been people on this forum who have said that first degree black belt doesn't mean you're a master or even an expert. If you're not even an expert, let alone a master, at first degree black belt then it still a relatively low rank.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
LOL, no. One of the hottest topics in martial arts are people who quit after getting their black belt.
I've never even heard of kindergarteners being referred to as "beginners," and I think that this is one of those instances where the line between "education" and "training" needs to be drawn. However, I wouldn't consider a high school freshman to be a beginner. He or she has been promoted nine times and is thoroughly versed in how to perform in school work and how to behave in class. I wouldn't even consider a college freshman to be a beginner. To me, being a college freshman was nothing more than being in the 13th grade.
On paper, maybe. But usually, the highest ranking person you see on a day-to-day basis is your dojo kancho. If he or she is only a godan, then how often would you see someone is rokudan or above?
It's like that age old riddle - does a falling tree make a sound if no one is there to hear it? If I remember correctly, the answer is "no" according to the dictionary definition of the word "sound."
If I apply that same logic in the dojo - i.e., only concerning myself with the ranks that are present - shodan wouldn't be low.
Bear in mind that you could say that captain is a low rank, solely on the basis of the number of ranks above it. But a captain commands a company (roughly 150 soldiers).
Also, as a shodan, you likely outrank at least two-thirds of the students in your dojo who are actively training. Possibly even more.
Are you saying that the belt system, for better or for worse, has affected or changed how karate is practiced?
What art was this practiced in, who are some of the more notable practitioners of this art that have worn such clothing? If you can't answer this, then please stop making this claim.
By the way, I can tell you right now that it's not karate. The camera was invented around 1840ish, and there are photographs of karate in Okinawa prior to the adoption of judo gi. They're either wearing regular everyday clothing or just shorts.
No. You're thinking of the modern dojo, which did not exist in Okinawa back then. As a matter fact, the modern dojo is a Japanese invention. Karate was taught privately back then, so there was no "group" to divide.
Okay, thanks.
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Which doesn't happen all that often, at least not from my experience, and I've been to multiple dojos over the decades. Most students quit before making it to black belt and those that do make it to black belt usually stay. Yes occasionally I have seen students drop out right after making black belt but so far I've seen it happen only twice in the dojo I first started training at and once at the dojo Im at now, so I don't see it happen that often. Im only speaking from my own experience, maybe your experience is different but that's mine.
The point is, being in the ninth grade, a freshman in high school, might or might not be seen as a beginner. You might not be a beginner in the grand scheme of things but a senior might see you as a beginner since you're beginning high school.
So the term "beginner" can depend on point of view.
Godan is fifth degree so it's significantly higher than shodan (first degree.) From what I've seen, in most styles tenth degree is the highest. The chief instructor at the dojo I go to now is sixth degree so he would be a rokudan although we sometimes go to special training sessions at this other dojo where the chief instructor there is 10th Dan. At my first dojo, the chief instructor was 8th Dan although he might've gotten promoted to 9th Dan when I was still going there.
Do bears (expletive) in the woods?
From my experiences a chief instructor at a dojo will often be 5th Dan or higher and at least some of the assistant instructors will be 3rd Dan or higher.
As I said, it all depends on your point of view.
True, although much of that is because most students drop out before making it to shodan.
For better or worse, I would have to say yes.
In multiple Chinese and Japanese arts. My source would mostly be multiple articles from Inside Karate magazine which I used to read when it was being published. It stopped publication in 1999.
If that's the case then I stand corrected. I'm not that familiar on the history of dojos.
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