Well you wouldn't be leading class at shodan but you would sometimes be an assistant instructor, sometimes even at brown belt I was expected to help with some of the teaching. You do have a point though, that first degree black belt would be more like the equivalent of somebody in college who hasn't gotten a degree yet but who might be interning to become a teacher and so forth.
Because you said black belt is only the beginning. So before the beginning is... nothing.
Name one example where before the beginning was nothing?
Can we say that black belt mean you can train MA for the rest of your life without any teacher?
Leviathan isn't making that claim. He's accusing PhotonGuy of making it.
Everything! Everything starts with the beginning.
"Accusing" is a big word. I'm not pressing charges or anything along those lines. I just asked him to back up his claim that black belt is the beginning.
Well the way I look at it, when you're a black belt you're a "serious" beginner. From my experience, most students are going to drop out before reaching black belt. There are different levels of being a beginner, you can be a beginner who is just starting out or you can be a more advanced beginner. Being a black belt would be like being a more advanced beginner so all the ranks before it would be earlier stages of being a beginner but the fact of the matter is that first degree black belt is a rather low rank when you look at all the dan ranks and in Japan the rank of first degree black belt is called Shodan which is literally translated as "low man," so there you have it.
The average attrition rate for schools of all styles in the US is around 60%, nearly all of this being in the green belt and below range. There is always going to be a high percentage of people who try martial arts and realize it is not for them. No harm, no foul.
I'm not sure if I disagree with this statement, or if I think it's just a bad choice of words. If one becomes a "serious beginner" upon earning their black belt, this implies that they were just screwing around and goofing off up to that point.
"Advanced beginner" is an oxymoron.
Are you sure about that?
I don't think there was a line as such. There was not any need for one. The main purpose of the belt system was to adapt to Japan's structured and organized way of doing things. Their other openly taught MA, judo, had belts, so karate had to have them too if it wished to be accepted.
I understand your point but you're overstretching the meaning of the word "beginner" to such an extent that it has become meaningless as you apply it to at least 99,999% of the practicioners. It's as absurd as stating Norway and Iceland are southern countries because they are not the north pole...
Agreed. These are the predecessors to the belt/kyu/dan system in karate:
"Shoshin." Sho(o) - beginning; shin - mind. A great concept for everyone throughout their lives.
It is, but it also reasonably encapsulates a concept. "Beginner" is not being used there to refer to a single point in time, but as a term to describe a period of time. The "advanced" puts them at the far end of that period of development. The way I read it is the same way I'd look at a "beginner" class in anything (like some of the beginner classes in coding I've attended). Some of the beginners are more advanced than others, though the class is still a good fit for them.
I don't think the fact that a different way of looking at things existed before belts really says anything about whether BB is used to denote "beginner".
From what I've seen many people who get into the martial arts will drop out at white belt or yellow belt. They will try it out just to see what its like and decide its not their thing and drop out as white belts, or they might go up one belt after white belt, usually a yellow belt, and drop out then. That way they will have gotten their first belt after white belt and they will drop out after that, Im only speaking from my own experience and observations.
It means that they plan to stick with it long term.
That would depend on the association as there is much variance between associations but consider this, in school when you're in the ninth grade, a freshman in high school, are you a beginner? You could say that you're a beginner in high school since it's the lowest grade in high school even if you're not a beginner in school in general, you've already been through kindergarten and then grades 1 through 8, so being in the ninth grade can or cannot be seen as being a beginner depending on your point of view, but it could be said that ninth grade is a new beginning.
True, although we're talking about how Karate is practiced and taught now, not back then.
Yes it is well known in the martial arts world that Kano who taught Judo gave black belts to his more advanced students back in the 1800s and that many other arts adopted that system, but the story of using colored belts to denote rank goes back way before that. The uniform would consist of a white sash that had the purpose of holding the jacket closed and since the sash was not washed it would get dirty over time so more advanced students could be identified by having darker sashes. This goes back way before Kano started out with the black belts for his more advanced students.
I wouldn't know much about how karate was taught back then, at least in regards to when one was considered a serious or advanced beginner, since Im mostly familiar with karate as its taught today with the modern colored belt system in place, although I would think they might put you in different groups back then depending on your skill level just as they do with sports today that don't have any kind of rank that's indicated by something you wear, just an educated guess on my part.
Well there have been people on this forum who have said that first degree black belt doesn't mean you're a master or even an expert. If you're not even an expert, let alone a master, at first degree black belt then it still a relatively low rank.
LOL, no. One of the hottest topics in martial arts are people who quit after getting their black belt.
I've never even heard of kindergarteners being referred to as "beginners," and I think that this is one of those instances where the line between "education" and "training" needs to be drawn. However, I wouldn't consider a high school freshman to be a beginner. He or she has been promoted nine times and is thoroughly versed in how to perform in school work and how to behave in class. I wouldn't even consider a college freshman to be a beginner. To me, being a college freshman was nothing more than being in the 13th grade.
On paper, maybe. But usually, the highest ranking person you see on a day-to-day basis is your dojo kancho. If he or she is only a godan, then how often would you see someone is rokudan or above?
Are you saying that the belt system, for better or for worse, has affected or changed how karate is practiced?
What art was this practiced in, who are some of the more notable practitioners of this art that have worn such clothing? If you can't answer this, then please stop making this claim.
No. You're thinking of the modern dojo, which did not exist in Okinawa back then. As a matter fact, the modern dojo is a Japanese invention. Karate was taught privately back then, so there was no "group" to divide.
Okay, thanks.
Which doesn't happen all that often, at least not from my experience, and I've been to multiple dojos over the decades. Most students quit before making it to black belt and those that do make it to black belt usually stay. Yes occasionally I have seen students drop out right after making black belt but so far I've seen it happen only twice in the dojo I first started training at and once at the dojo Im at now, so I don't see it happen that often. Im only speaking from my own experience, maybe your experience is different but that's mine.
The point is, being in the ninth grade, a freshman in high school, might or might not be seen as a beginner. You might not be a beginner in the grand scheme of things but a senior might see you as a beginner since you're beginning high school.
Godan is fifth degree so it's significantly higher than shodan (first degree.) From what I've seen, in most styles tenth degree is the highest. The chief instructor at the dojo I go to now is sixth degree so he would be a rokudan although we sometimes go to special training sessions at this other dojo where the chief instructor there is 10th Dan. At my first dojo, the chief instructor was 8th Dan although he might've gotten promoted to 9th Dan when I was still going there.
Do bears (expletive) in the woods?
From my experiences a chief instructor at a dojo will often be 5th Dan or higher and at least some of the assistant instructors will be 3rd Dan or higher.
As I said, it all depends on your point of view.
True, although much of that is because most students drop out before making it to shodan.
For better or worse, I would have to say yes.
In multiple Chinese and Japanese arts. My source would mostly be multiple articles from Inside Karate magazine which I used to read when it was being published. It stopped publication in 1999.
If that's the case then I stand corrected. I'm not that familiar on the history of dojos.
