Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[Taiji Rebel]

Mr. Miyagi himself said that in Okinawa a belt means that you don't need a rope to hold up your pants so that is an indication that he never had any belts of rank himself. Sato wearing a red belt might've been an inconsistency.

Daniel asked what belt Mr. Migagi had at the time, not about any belts he had in the past so in the scenario where Miyagi had a belt and threw it away that would apply. Much like in a scene which did not make the final cut where Bobby discards his belt at Kreese's feet and walks away after being disqualified for kicking Daniel in the knee.

As for my argument against what Unel did, the student asked how long it took to get a black belt and Unel, albeit jokingly, offered to sell him one on the spot. As you said earlier Unel could've been doing that just to make the student look dumb. It was rather obvious the student was asking how long on the average it took to earn a black belt not how much it cost to buy one. Trying to make a student or prospective student look dumb is poor taste if you ask me.

Do you guys think Daniel and Mr. Miyagi are real people?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Do you guys think Daniel and Mr. Miyagi are real people?

Obviously they're not, your point?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Obviously they're not, your point?

If they are not real, then why are you discussing their belts and family systems? This topic and thread is heading into surreal dimensions

 

[Hot Lunch]

Obviously they're not, your point?

He didn't read back to when we first brought that up.

 

[Hot Lunch]

If they are not real, then why are you discussing their belts and family systems? This topic and thread is heading into surreal dimensions

You're allowed to use fictional stories to illustrate a point. And it's not gonna stop with Karate Kid. Soon, you'll see me using Star Wars.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

You're allowed to use fictional stories to illustrate a point. And it's not gonna stop with Karate Kid. Soon, you'll see me using Star Wars.

Luke Skywalker studied martial arts too? Wow! I am learning a great deal about things I was completely unaware of until now

 

[PhotonGuy]

If they are not real, then why are you discussing their belts and family systems? This topic and thread is heading into surreal dimensions

Because while Mr. Miyagi and Daniel are fictional characters, some of the stuff they talk about is real, such as how some instructors don't believe in or use belts of rank.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You're allowed to use fictional stories to illustrate a point. And it's not gonna stop with Karate Kid. Soon, you'll see me using Star Wars.

Exactly, we use fictional stories all the time to teach real lessons.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Luke Skywalker studied martial arts too? Wow! I am learning a great deal about things I was completely unaware of until now

Yep, this is real constructive.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Because while Mr. Miyagi and Daniel are fictional characters, some of the stuff they talk about is real, such as how some instructors don't believe in or use belts of rank.

Karate here (points to head), Karate here (points to heart), Karate never here (points to belt) - Mr. Miyagi

 

[Hot Lunch]

Exactly, we use fictional stories all the time to teach real lessons.

He's trolling. I've been inboxed by the mods for lesser things.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It can be a motivator, but it isn't for quite a few. How do I know? There are a lot of systems that don't use them, yet manage to get plenty of students (boxing, most MMA gyms, big swaths of CMA). Sure, some of us (myself included) were motivated down the path by progression in ranks, but when I started training, I didn't have a BB in my sights. Not even when I started training in the style I stayed in for decades.

I don't even think it's reasonable to say it's a motivator for all. I've known people who never bothered to test for BB, because the test (time, commitment, and sometimes money) wasn't worth the payoff, though they could readilyt have passed it (others around them knew they were more skilled and knowledgeable than fresh BB's).

Black belt certainly wasn't a motivator for me when I started BJJ, because it was so far off that it didn't seem real.

It did end up as a motivator 15 years later when I was eventually awarded my black belt. The reason was that I didn't feel at all deserving. I thought I was at least another 2-3 years away from being able to properly back it up. So I spent the next year after I was given the belt training extra hard just so that I wouldn't be an embarrassment to the rank and my instructor.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

I sometimes notice that there are big contradictions in the martial arts. For instance, and I've discussed this before, how they will say that being a first degree black belt doesn't mean you're a master or even an expert it just means you're a serious beginner, but then they make it so hard to get that you practically have to be a master to get it. Sounds very contradictory to me.

One thing which really does intrigues me is the concept of the Beginner's Mind (Shoshin) Martial artists are encouraged to retain the beginner's mindset throughout their studies. Unel Wellington encouraged this way of thinking in all classes. Apparently, the Japanese have a different way of thinking when it comes to martial arts and the concept of beginners and experts. Perhaps this is where some of the contradictions you are referring to in your opening post come from - just a thought!

 

[Hot Lunch]

Check this out. This is coming straight from the IJF - the world's highest governing body of judo, the martial art that started belts in the first place:

The Belt: Myth and Reality of an Essential Symbol

The belt is both an object and a strong symbol, closely linked to the practice of martial arts and judo in particular. As judoka we wear a belt and by association we are this belt: I have a black belt and I am a black belt.

www.ijf.org

What is stated there is contrary to the "belts mean nothing" mindset.

This particular quote stands out:

"The different belts that one obtains, during life as a judoka, mark progression in the sport. Studying judo is a long-term process, which ideally begins at a young age, although it is possible to begin judo study as an adult. Obtaining grades is therefore a continuous process that motivates the practitioner to know more. As such, the black belt has a mysterious dimension. Being a black belt in judo means knowing things that other people don't know. However, as the practice progresses, step by step, everyone has the possibility of reaching this philosophical grail and in turn being part of ‘those who know.’ At the beginning the black belt is a dream idealised by the child, but gradually, it becomes the goal that one sets and that one can achieve through work and diligence."

 

[PhotonGuy]

Black belt certainly wasn't a motivator for me when I started BJJ, because it was so far off that it didn't seem real.

It did end up as a motivator 15 years later when I was eventually awarded my black belt. The reason was that I didn't feel at all deserving. I thought I was at least another 2-3 years away from being able to properly back it up. So I spent the next year after I was given the belt training extra hard just so that I wouldn't be an embarrassment to the rank and my instructor.

So you think your instructor just handed you the belt when you weren't ready?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So you think your instructor just handed you the belt when you weren't ready?

By the standards I expected of myself, I didn't think I was ready. In the judgment of my instructor (a 3rd degree black belt) and his instructor (a 6th degree black belt), I was ready.

Part of it may have been a matter of age. I was 50, which means I didn't have the athletic fighting ability that they probably would have demanded from a 30 year old black belt. So I think they were looking more at my technique and my teaching ability. (My instructor will freely tell people that I am better at teaching than he is.)

Another reason for our difference in opinion regarding my readiness may have been the difference in the breadth of what they were looking at. My instructor's instructor (Carlson Gracie Jr) had only seen me doing groundwork sparring. At the time, I considered my takedown ability to be sub-par for what I would want to see from a black belt.

One last consideration may have been that Carlson Jr has pretty much only seen me when I'm performing at my best. He lives in Chicago and I only see him when he comes to Kentucky or Ohio for seminars. I enjoy seminars, they put me in a relaxed mood, and I usually roll really well during rounds at the end of a seminar. (I can only recall one exception, and it turned out I was coming down with a bad cold.)

So Carlson had mostly only seen me doing groundwork and only at my best. My instructor was giving me points for teaching ability and for being able to roll well despite limited physical attributes. But I didn't feel that I was at the technical level I needed to be overall and so I put extra time and effort into improving the areas where I thought I was lacking.

 

[Buka]

By the standards I expected of myself, I didn't think I was ready. In the judgment of my instructor (a 3rd degree black belt) and his instructor (a 6th degree black belt), I was ready.

Part of it may have been a matter of age. I was 50, which means I didn't have the athletic fighting ability that they probably would have demanded from a 30 year old black belt. So I think they were looking more at my technique and my teaching ability. (My instructor will freely tell people that I am better at teaching than he is.)

Another reason for our difference in opinion regarding my readiness may have been the difference in the breadth of what they were looking at. My instructor's instructor (Carlson Gracie Jr) had only seen me doing groundwork sparring. At the time, I considered my takedown ability to be sub-par for what I would want to see from a black belt.

One last consideration may have been that Carlson Jr has pretty much only seen me when I'm performing at my best. He lives in Chicago and I only see him when he comes to Kentucky or Ohio for seminars. I enjoy seminars, they put me in a relaxed mood, and I usually roll really well during rounds at the end of a seminar. (I can only recall one exception, and it turned out I was coming down with a bad cold.)

So Carlson had mostly only seen me doing groundwork and only at my best. My instructor was giving me points for teaching ability and for being able to roll well despite limited physical attributes. But I didn't feel that I was at the technical level I needed to be overall and so I put extra time and effort into improving the areas where I thought I was lacking.

And you obviously did a damn fine job of it.

Tony, I realize every style, dojo, student, teacher, sparring partner, opponent are all different. If you break down each and everyone of those, as well as all the etc I didn’t mention….it seems that Martial Arts and Artists are as pure as the driven snow. AS IN, no two snowflakes are alike.

I don’t test and promote by rote, I test and promote individually. My guess, which I’d bet my dog’s life on, is if YOU ten years from now, was to train a different version of you, you’d promote him to Black Belt when the time was right, as well.

Go ahead, argue that, I double dog dare you.

 

[HighKick]

By the standards I expected of myself, I didn't think I was ready. In the judgment of my instructor (a 3rd degree black belt) and his instructor (a 6th degree black belt), I was ready.

Part of it may have been a matter of age. I was 50, which means I didn't have the athletic fighting ability that they probably would have demanded from a 30 year old black belt. So I think they were looking more at my technique and my teaching ability. (My instructor will freely tell people that I am better at teaching than he is.)

Another reason for our difference in opinion regarding my readiness may have been the difference in the breadth of what they were looking at. My instructor's instructor (Carlson Gracie Jr) had only seen me doing groundwork sparring. At the time, I considered my takedown ability to be sub-par for what I would want to see from a black belt.

One last consideration may have been that Carlson Jr has pretty much only seen me when I'm performing at my best. He lives in Chicago and I only see him when he comes to Kentucky or Ohio for seminars. I enjoy seminars, they put me in a relaxed mood, and I usually roll really well during rounds at the end of a seminar. (I can only recall one exception, and it turned out I was coming down with a bad cold.)

So Carlson had mostly only seen me doing groundwork and only at my best. My instructor was giving me points for teaching ability and for being able to roll well despite limited physical attributes. But I didn't feel that I was at the technical level I needed to be overall and so I put extra time and effort into improving the areas where I thought I was lacking.

This speaks to who our greatest adversary usually is. And you Sir appear to set the bar high. Goon on ya.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Inquirer: "How long does it take to make it to this particular rank?"

Club representative: "I'll sell you the insignia for $10."

Definitely checks out.

In syntax, but not in tone. Which was what I said.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes. "The" answer.

Danny: "What kind of belt do you have?"

Mr. Miyagi: "Black/coral/red. x-th dan in Goju-ryu."

Except I think the implication was he didn’t have a rank like that.