Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

Sure it is, in both cases somebody (a sensei or a scoutmaster) is suggesting that I cheat.

That’s the tone part. I don’t see any implication in the original story that it was actually a suggestion. He was pointing out the color of the belt shouldn’t be the emphasis - it’s the work behind it that matters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, that's where you can get Boy Scout uniforms, books, supplies, and all sorts of camping gear and other stuff you use in Boy Scouts. They also sell badges although you have to show them credentials that say you've fulfilled the requirements for the badges before they sell them to you.

That’s cool. It never occurred to me that would be a thing, though it makes sense with the size of the organization.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Add belts, and watch things change real quick.

Let's go back to the military. In the Navy, the lowest six enlisted paygrades wear different uniforms (the sailor suit) from the highest three and officers (white mandarin collar and blue double breasted suits). The Navy is the only branch of the military to have this. In every other branch of the military, everyone wears the same uniforms (with minor distinctions between grades, but essentially still the same).

For the most part, the goal of career enlisted personnel is to reach the highest paygrade (E9). Outside of becoming an NCO at E4/E5 (depending on the branch), each and every promotion is merely one step on the way to E9 and nothing more.

But in the Navy? Nope. Making E7 (Chief Petty Officer) is a HUGE deal. Why? Because you get to wear the cooler and more dignified looking uniforms. Whereas, in the other branches, promotion to E7 is just another stripe.

Sure. And some folks might choose the navy (consciously or not) for this. And others might not choose it, for the same reason) as there are folks who choose unranked systems in part because they are unranked). You’re claiming introducing rank will change what motivates people, but I know of no evidence that backs this. I’d expect pretty much everyone to tend toward systems with easier ranking, if that were true.

So this wasn't a problem for them with promotions up the current ranks they held at the time?

Didn’t seem to be. In many places, there’s a distinct difference in the BB test versus those prior. And many times each prior belt was also a gateway to some of the curriculum. The BB rank didn’t offer enough motivation, so they didn’t bother with it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sato wearing a red belt in the sequel is an indicator.

That’s something not in evidence in the original. That change in canon makes the original line a bit odd. Without that change, the original line makes more sense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's the indication right there. If Sato and Miyagi were both trained in Miyago-do, then Miyago-do clearly has rank if Sato is wearing a red belt.

Even if I granted you the second statement (though throwing away the belt doesn't erase his credentials), how is this helping your argument against what Unel did?

That’s likely, but not necessary. I could teach my primary art without offering rank of any sort, in spite of my own rank (or, more properly, because of my view of rank).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Mr. Miyagi himself said that in Okinawa a belt means that you don't need a rope to hold up your pants so that is an indication that he never had any belts of rank himself. Sato wearing a red belt might've been an inconsistency.

Daniel asked what belt Mr. Migagi had at the time, not about any belts he had in the past so in the scenario where Miyagi had a belt and threw it away that would apply. Much like in a scene which did not make the final cut where Bobby discards his belt at Kreese's feet and walks away after being disqualified for kicking Daniel in the knee.

As for my argument against what Unel did, the student asked how long it took to get a black belt and Unel, albeit jokingly, offered to sell him one on the spot. As you said earlier Unel could've been doing that just to make the student look dumb. It was rather obvious the student was asking how long on the average it took to earn a black belt not how much it cost to buy one. Trying to make a student or prospective student look dumb is poor taste if you ask me.

If making them look dumb was his point, I agree. I suspect it wasn’t, but could be wrong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One thing which really does intrigues me is the concept of the Beginner's Mind (Shoshin) Martial artists are encouraged to retain the beginner's mindset throughout their studies. Unel Wellington encouraged this way of thinking in all classes. Apparently, the Japanese have a different way of thinking when it comes to martial arts and the concept of beginners and experts. Perhaps this is where some of the contradictions you are referring to in your opening post come from - just a thought!

I like where this post is going. Can you expound?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And you obviously did a damn fine job of it.

Tony, I realize every style, dojo, student, teacher, sparring partner, opponent are all different. If you break down each and everyone of those, as well as all the etc I didn’t mention….it seems that Martial Arts and Artists are as pure as the driven snow. AS IN, no two snowflakes are alike.

I don’t test and promote by rote, I test and promote individually. My guess, which I’d bet my dog’s life on, is if YOU ten years from now, was to train a different version of you, you’d promote him to Black Belt when the time was right, as well.

Go ahead, argue that, I double dog dare you.

We'll see. I do sometimes disagree with my peers and my instructor on whether someone is ready for promotion. That's part of why we often discuss promotion to higher ranks among ourselves to make sure we have some sort of consensus.

So far I've only promoted two people to black belt.

One came to our gym as a brown belt with extensive competition and fight experience and I always regarded him as a peer rather than a student. (Although I'm proud that he currently claims me as his primary coach, the fact is that I've learned as much from him as he has from me.)

The other is a young man who started training in our gym at age 11 and is currently in his early 20s. I helped teach him, but I was only one coach among many and he's been self-guided for a while now. He didn't really want the rank, but he's just too dominant in rolling to be anything else.

I figure I'm about 5 years away from having someone ready for black belt who has primarily been my student up through the ranks.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That’s the tone part. I don’t see any implication in the original story that it was actually a suggestion. He was pointing out the color of the belt shouldn’t be the emphasis - it’s the work behind it that matters.

I suppose you can say the same thing about letter grades in school (A, B, C, D, F) the letter of your grate shouldn't be the emphasis, its the work behind it that matters.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I suppose you can say the same thing about letter grades in school (A, B, C, D, F) the letter of your grate shouldn't be the emphasis, its the work behind it that matters.

I tried telling my parents that when I was a kid. Didn't work out too well for me.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I tried telling my parents that when I was a kid. Didn't work out too well for me.

Well it also depends on what kind of school you go to. I knew a fellow growing up who got straight As and was at the top of the class when he was in public school. Then he switched to a really hard private school where he was getting mostly Bs and. Cs and was in the middle of the class.

 

[PhotonGuy]

No one is suggesting you cheat. You missed the point that's been explained like 5 times to you.

And different posters have given different explanations.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Sure. And some folks might choose the navy (consciously or not) for this. And others might not choose it, for the same reason) as there are folks who choose unranked systems in part because they are unranked). You’re claiming introducing rank will change what motivates people, but I know of no evidence that backs this. I’d expect pretty much everyone to tend toward systems with easier ranking, if that were true.

I would say that most people joining the Navy aren't aware of this in the first place. But for those that know about this prior to selecting a branch to join, I would say that you're absolutely right about that being a reason some people choose another branch to join.

While those uniforms create a greater perceived prestige among the E7 to E9 grades in the Navy, it comes at the expense of the E5 and E6 grades (nobody cares what you have to say if you're not wearing khakis in the Navy, while this is a non-issue in the other services). Furthermore, only about 40% of career enlisted in all branches of the military ever make it to E7; so it's far easier for a retired E6 in other branches to shrug off having never made E7 than it is for someone who retired at E6 in the Navy. For those who feel that they might not make it that high, they could take this into consideration when choosing a branch.

But to your point earlier, following Vietnam up through the mid-80's, there was a time where everyone in the Navy wore the same uniform (the sailor suit for E6 and below was discontinued). I've talked to people who were in at the time who claim that the caliber of those who made E7 back then were different, which may have affected the Navy's decision to bring back the sailor suit.

 

[Steve]

rank is like money. The only people who say it’s not important are people who seem to have plenty of it.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Do you guys think Daniel and Mr. Miyagi are real people?

Pat Morita's character is based on the founder of Goju Ru, but even moreso this dude, his stunt double.

Fumio Demura - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They are legion. I myself have a small bonsai.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Pat Morita's character is based on the founder of Goju Ru, but even moreso this dude, his stunt double.

Fumio Demura - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They are legion. I myself have a small bonsai.

Yes, there was a good documentary on Fumio Demurai called The Real Miyagi a few years back

The original movies inspired many kids to take up the martial arts in the 1980s. My nephew got into them about ten years back, and even wanted his own bonsai Those Karate Kid films did a really good job of putting across the essence of karate-do, but that is what they were made for

Storytelling is the most powerful way to put ideas into the world today - Robert McKee

 

[PhotonGuy]

I know this will be difficult for you to grasp, but if everyone gets it except you, maybe the problem is you...

But that's just the thing, not everybody else has gotten it, or at least not everybody else has agreed on what it means to get it when they give different answers and different interpretations.

 

[wolfeyes2323]

I sometimes notice that there are big contradictions in the martial arts. For instance, and I've discussed this before, how they will say that being a first degree black belt doesn't mean you're a master or even an expert it just means you're a serious beginner, but then they make it so hard to get that you practically have to be a master to get it. Sounds very contradictory to me.

At shodan you have learned what is required practice to enable you to progress and develop on your own. A teacher can only show you what to practice and teach you how to practice, (shodan), after that its up to you to add years of practice.

 

[Hot Lunch]

At shodan you have learned what is required practice to enable you to progress and develop on your own. A teacher can only show you what to practice and teach you how to practice, (shodan), after that its up to you to add years of practice.

Although this isn't exactly what PhotonGuy said, it's close enough. I think you'll get some kudos on this, where PhotonGuy gets ridiculed and grilled for saying similar things.

 

[Hot Lunch]

In my opinion, I can't care what anyone's motives are, as long as that motive has them showing up and giving 100%.

The problem with "black belt and nothing more" being the motive is that you've already grabbed and eaten the carrot being dangled in front of you once you have the black belt, so what's motivating you now?

But again, that's my opinion.

I'm not completely familiar with Goju-ryu (the nearest Gojo-ryu dojo from me is an hour drive away, and out in the sticks), but I do know that Suparinpai is its highest kata, and that isn't learned until 5th or 6th dan. For me, that's my motivation (or, in my case, Unsu in Shotokan). At that point, I'll feel like I'll have "everything" and can start self-actualizing from there.

Ultimately, I think every individual has to decide what it means to them.