Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If an instructor offered to sell me a belt for $10 (or any amount of money) without earning it by developing proper skill, I would leave his dojo immediately.

He wasn't legitimately trying/offering to sell a belt for $10. He was making a point to the potential student.

 

[PhotonGuy]

It all depends on the style or system and your instructor. Some clubs give you a B.B. in under 2 years, in this case I would assume you really need 2+ more years of training to be at the B.B. level that is expected. This is my experience as an Instructor of several Styles, not a fact.

American Kenpo for example, you would be lucky to get your B.B. in 6+ years if your instructor is very professional. It isn't always the belt, it's the time you spent training.

My experience in the 2 styles I have trained in took me 3 hours a day 3 days a week for 6+ years to get to the level I would allow myself to wear a B.B. in traditional Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.

In addition of the 3 hours a day 3 days a week did you do much homework? (Where you train on your own not at the dojo.)

That's just me, I'm very strict with myself. I trained 5 days a week for 8 years until I felt I was worthy of a letting myself test for my B.B. in Ed Parker American Kenpo. And many years also in T.K.D., Akido, Hapkido, etc. I enjoy all styles and all styles have something to teach us.

So exactly what kind of system did your Kenpo instructor have in place on how students go up in rank? Would you sign up to test at your own discretion, would you be told when you would test, or would it be something totally different?

If you want to fool yourself and others by wearing a B.B. with only a year or so of training that's your decision, but for your pride and safety make sure you don't get called out to use it because more than likely you will not hold up to a real B.B.

Now exceptions do exist, a natural born athlete could train 6 days a week 3+ hours a day and be great within a year. And if is also a boxer/street fighter he would be a true opponent.
You just don't know what others know, be careful.

A couple of things. First of all, I would want a BB because I've developed an x amount of skill not because I've trained for an x length of time. Second, exactly what do you define as a "real BB?" The definition varies. Thirdly, and this ties in with the first point, if I can develop my skill to a level where I can hold my own against black belts from other dojos or whatever you might define as a "real BB" within one year, I would certainly not object to wearing a BB in one year and be doing so I would not be fooling myself or others or putting my pride and safety in jeopardy. If I can't develop my skill to that level in a year then no I would not want to wear a BB in one year as it would be a cheap BB and as you point out, I would be fooling myself and putting my pride and safety in jeopardy by doing so.

 

[PhotonGuy]

He wasn't legitimately trying/offering to sell a belt for $10. He was making a point to the potential student.

In which case I would leave the dojo, if an instructor made such a point with me.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Or we could all just train and spend less time with specious arguments.

Tea its been a while since I've seen you. Good to see you back.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Martial Talk has more to do with my Kung Fu training than my Karate Training. I rarely speak of my karate training because my Kung Fu training and experience far outweighs my Karate Training. I still value my Karate Training because it was the first time, I had my breath knocked out of me from a kick and a punch during sparring. Those moments have value for me. Even though I was a yellow belt, training for a yellow belt then is different from what it is now. Back then, this is what Karate was. The training I can remember took this shape.

My mindset of Martial Arts isn't about rank, formality, politics, or belt, which frustrated my last teacher to no end. He wanted me to reach Sifu. But for me I wasn't interested. Even when I was a kid, the thought of a new belt color didn't have meaning for me. My karate teacher then tried to get me back in the school to do testing for my next belt. I remember being turned off by that. I specifically remember asking myself. Why would he test me for the next belt rank when I haven't trained at the school in months. If he knew me well, then he would have said, we'll get you into some extra sparring so you can be like Joe Corley. I think that was the day that the belt system died for me.

My passion for Jow Ga Kung fu as an effective martial art is why I joined Martial Talk. My first year here was mostly me providing examples of that. I still feel the same way.

I see, so you're still into the martial arts, you just prefer Kung Fu over Karate. It's not uncommon to switch arts like that. I was a yellow belt myself in Judo when I stopped doing it and took up Karate, which I liked better. With many people though, they might do a martial art for a little while, maybe go up one belt, and then move on and decide the martial arts in general isn't for them and go on to other stuff.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I see, so you're still into the martial arts, you just prefer Kung Fu over Karate.

Yes, I still train when I'm not injured. The karate that I learn didn't use weapons. That was a big disappointment for me as a kid. I wanted swords, spears, and everything in between. To be honest, it's possible that there weren't any kung fu schools in the city where I live. Even now there are fewer Kung Fu school where I live than one would think. TKD schools are almost as popular as gas stations here. Not so much the same popularity for kung fu.

It took me a long time to get back into Martial Arts after I left karate. Even in the big city it's like kung fu schools are: in the mountains" I have to travel hours just to get to one.

I would have stuck with Jow Ga if there was a school around when I was 6. The Jow Ga schools back then had a strong emphasis on the application of kung fu. I would have been all over that. as a kid.

The one thing I can see myself doing is training another system along with Jow Ga Kung Fu. The only thing is that I'm not sure if I want to Join a school and pay hundreds of dollars. But we'll see. I still haven't decided about it yet.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You really ought to provide a better answer.

That was the best possible answer based on your post

 

[Taiji Rebel]

In which case I would leave the dojo, if an instructor made such a point with me.

Wow, you guys are really taking this event out of context - it was a light-hearted moment and everyone involved was totally cool with the situation, the guy joined the dojo immediately and thoroughly enjoyed training there

PhotonGuy, I am still amazed that you actually believed Unel was selling black-belts to anyone who wanted one

 

[Instructor]

Right. Because it's not at all true that the affluent are the vast majority of those groups, either.

I have to agree. Trailer park kid here and I was enlisted for 20 years despite my best efforts. However I did get a degree and improved myself. Now my daughter is an academy graduate and an officer.

 

[J. Pickard]

The highest color in BJJ is red, the highest belt they've got is the red belt which is above the black belt.

This is true for Judo and some karate styles as well. In Vovinam the highest color is white.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yes, I still train when I'm not injured. The karate that I learn didn't use weapons. That was a big disappointment for me as a kid. I wanted swords, spears, and everything in between. To be honest, it's possible that there weren't any kung fu schools in the city where I live. Even now there are fewer Kung Fu school where I live than one would think. TKD schools are almost as popular as gas stations here. Not so much the same popularity for kung fu.

It took me a long time to get back into Martial Arts after I left karate. Even in the big city it's like kung fu schools are: in the mountains" I have to travel hours just to get to one.

I would have stuck with Jow Ga if there was a school around when I was 6. The Jow Ga schools back then had a strong emphasis on the application of kung fu. I would have been all over that. as a kid.

The one thing I can see myself doing is training another system along with Jow Ga Kung Fu. The only thing is that I'm not sure if I want to Join a school and pay hundreds of dollars. But we'll see. I still haven't decided about it yet.

Well my karate dojo where I do Goju Ryu uses weapons, we use staffs, nunchaku, kamas, naginatas, and when you get more advanced you do learn to use swords metal swords although when you're a beginner you just use the wooden sword, the bokken. We don't use spears but we use lots of other weapons. In my first karate dojol however we did not use weapons. So with karate you might or might not use weapons, it all depends on the instructor I suppose.

If you want to supplement your training with another style you might want to look into judo or jiu jitsu to get some good grappling skills in. And in such arts you use this weapon called the ground. When you throw somebody you slam them into the entire planet.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That was the best possible answer based on your post

Well, Im still waiting.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Wow, you guys are really taking this event out of context - it was a light-hearted moment and everyone involved was totally cool with the situation, the guy joined the dojo immediately and thoroughly enjoyed training there

PhotonGuy, I am still amazed that you actually believed Unel was selling black-belts to anyone who wanted one

Well I did do a web search on Unel and I've discovered that he is quite a controversial figure. But even if he did was in good humor, jokes aren't funny if they're offensive.

 

[PhotonGuy]

This is true for Judo and some karate styles as well. In Vovinam the highest color is white.

Yes I have heard of styles where white is the highest color, I once visited a martial arts school where black was the lowest belt and white was the highest belt.

 

[J. Pickard]

Yes I have heard of styles where white is the highest color, I once visited a martial arts school where black was the lowest belt and white was the highest belt.

I've never seen that one before. Now I'm curious as to what style might do that. Off to google to find out.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, Im still waiting.

Seriously.... wow

 

[PhotonGuy]

I've never seen that one before. Now I'm curious as to what style might do that. Off to google to find out.

The style was a Chinese style called Eagle Claw and the school I visited that taught it was in New York City. Traditionally the Eagle Claw system doesn't have ranks but that particular school had come up with a ranking system for the style they taught.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Seriously.... wow

As I said, you'll have to do better.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have an idea that will lay all that to rest.

The purpose of colored belts is a quick and convenient way to organize and identify students according to their training needs, correct? At least, that's what we're told.

So how about this: everybody gets black belts. The only difference is that as you move up in the kyu ranks, you get a silver bar with each promotion. Upon reaching shodan, you get a new black belt with a gold bar, and add on from there.

Same purpose, right? You can tell the different kyu ranks apart by the number of silver bars on their black belt, right?

But there's one problem: good luck attracting and keeping students with this (though those who really believe what they're saying could weed out the students they claim they don't want by doing this). Whether people want to admit it or not, earning a black belt is a motivator. No one wants it to be "given" to them. I'm not saying that it is "the" motivator - though that's the case for some. But for everyone, it is at least "a" motivator to one extent or another.

It can be a motivator, but it isn't for quite a few. How do I know? There are a lot of systems that don't use them, yet manage to get plenty of students (boxing, most MMA gyms, big swaths of CMA). Sure, some of us (myself included) were motivated down the path by progression in ranks, but when I started training, I didn't have a BB in my sights. Not even when I started training in the style I stayed in for decades.

I don't even think it's reasonable to say it's a motivator for all. I've known people who never bothered to test for BB, because the test (time, commitment, and sometimes money) wasn't worth the payoff, though they could readilyt have passed it (others around them knew they were more skilled and knowledgeable than fresh BB's).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agree with you 100% there.

- Below BB is for foundation building.
- Above BB is for combat testing.
- Above 3rd degree BB can be a teacher.

Those specific delineations won't apply at all in many contexts. Not even close, in some.