Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[Hot Lunch]

No, it didn't. The children of the affluent are still far more likely to be commissioned officers. In general, do you think a Senator recommends the poor child, or the child of a wealthy campaign donor for admission to the various military academies?

Where you're mistaken is thinking that academies are the only way to get a commission. There's ROTC (colleges that will take anyone with a pulse have this) and OCS for people who already have bachelor's degrees.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Where you're mistaken is thinking that academies are the only way to get a commission. There's ROTC (colleges that will take anyone with a pulse have this) and OCS for people who already have bachelor's degrees.

Right. Because it's not at all true that the affluent are the vast majority of those groups, either.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The purpose of colored belts is a quick and convenient way to organize and identify students according to their training needs, correct?

Agree with you 100% there.

- Below BB is for foundation building.
- Above BB is for combat testing.
- Above 3rd degree BB can be a teacher.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And yet, here you are at Martial Talk.

Martial Talk has more to do with my Kung Fu training than my Karate Training. I rarely speak of my karate training because my Kung Fu training and experience far outweighs my Karate Training. I still value my Karate Training because it was the first time, I had my breath knocked out of me from a kick and a punch during sparring. Those moments have value for me. Even though I was a yellow belt, training for a yellow belt then is different from what it is now. Back then, this is what Karate was. The training I can remember took this shape.

My mindset of Martial Arts isn't about rank, formality, politics, or belt, which frustrated my last teacher to no end. He wanted me to reach Sifu. But for me I wasn't interested. Even when I was a kid, the thought of a new belt color didn't have meaning for me. My karate teacher then tried to get me back in the school to do testing for my next belt. I remember being turned off by that. I specifically remember asking myself. Why would he test me for the next belt rank when I haven't trained at the school in months. If he knew me well, then he would have said, we'll get you into some extra sparring so you can be like Joe Corley. I think that was the day that the belt system died for me.

My passion for Jow Ga Kung fu as an effective martial art is why I joined Martial Talk. My first year here was mostly me providing examples of that. I still feel the same way.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Theodore Roosevelt joining the Army as a captain and commanding a company during the Spanish American War from the beginning was an example of corruption in how that worked.

To give Teddy his due, he was a military historian, world adventurer, and Assistant Sec. of the Navy before joining the Rough Riders (a considerable demotion and he willingly put himself in danger) and served with distinction during the war. Bully for him!

 

[HighKick]

I don't know about other countries, but that ended around the time of World War I in the US. I've never heard of commissions being purchased (though I wouldn't argue with you for a second over that; it would be a losing bet to say that it didn't happen), but Theodore Roosevelt joining the Army as a captain and commanding a company during the Spanish American War from the beginning was an example of corruption in how that worked.

From my readings, however, when standing armies started to become a thing in the 1500s, and up until the Napoleonic Era; in many countries, commoners were always enlisted, and royalty and ability were always commissioned. According to urban legend, the existence of warrant officers was due to indecisiveness on whether or not to commission illegitimate sons of nobles - so a new class was created for them.

Anyhow, to redirect from this rabbit hole we're about to go down, what Unel did can be replicated in other settings outside of martial arts to demonstrate why what he did was rude.

Teddy Roosevelt entered the National Guard in 1882 as a second Lieutenant. He resigned as a caption in 1886. In 1898 he volunteered to head a cavalry unit destined to fight in Cuba against Spain in the Spanish-American War that we all know as the Rough Ryders.

 

[Tez3]

I have an idea that will lay all that to rest.

The purpose of colored belts is a quick and convenient way to organize and identify students according to their training needs, correct? At least, that's what we're told.

So how about this: everybody gets black belts. The only difference is that as you move up in the kyu ranks, you get a silver bar with each promotion. Upon reaching shodan, you get a new black belt with a gold bar, and add on from there.

Same purpose, right? You can tell the different kyu ranks apart by the number of silver bars on their black belt, right?

But there's one problem: good luck attracting and keeping students with this (though those who really believe what they're saying could weed out the students they claim they don't want by doing this). Whether people want to admit it or not, earning a black belt is a motivator. No one wants it to be "given" to them. I'm not saying that it is "the" motivator - though that's the case for some. But for everyone, it is at least "a" motivator to one extent or another.

Or we could all just train and spend less time with specious arguments.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Martial Talk has more to do with my Kung Fu training than my Karate Training. I rarely speak of my karate training because my Kung Fu training and experience far outweighs my Karate Training. I still value my Karate Training because it was the first time, I had my breath knocked out of me from a kick and a punch during sparring. Those moments have value for me. Even though I was a yellow belt, training for a yellow belt then is different from what it is now. Back then, this is what Karate was. The training I can remember took this shape.

My mindset of Martial Arts isn't about rank, formality, politics, or belt, which frustrated my last teacher to no end. He wanted me to reach Sifu. But for me I wasn't interested. Even when I was a kid, the thought of a new belt color didn't have meaning for me. My karate teacher then tried to get me back in the school to do testing for my next belt. I remember being turned off by that. I specifically remember asking myself. Why would he test me for the next belt rank when I haven't trained at the school in months. If he knew me well, then he would have said, we'll get you into some extra sparring so you can be like Joe Corley. I think that was the day that the belt system died for me.

My passion for Jow Ga Kung fu as an effective martial art is why I joined Martial Talk. My first year here was mostly me providing examples of that. I still feel the same way.

That video reminded me of the old days when me and my buddies would find a patch of ground, don the gloves and fight. One would act as referee. Another would mark out the ring space. Loose rules and round-timings were agreed upon, and then we would fight. No gumshields either in those days. Lots of bruised bodies and egos too. It was fun though and we learnt a great deal. We made our own tournaments back then. The hardest part was finding a patch of ground that was away from the gleaming eyes of the public - we did not need, or want, any disruptions from the local cops. We had no belts or concerns about contradictions in the martial arts, haha, we were just fighting

 

[JowGaWolf]

Or we could all just train and spend less time with specious arguments.

Tez is like the parent of Martial Talk. lol

 

[OLD DOG NEW TRICKS]

I sometimes notice that there are big contradictions in the martial arts. For instance, and I've discussed this before, how they will say that being a first degree black belt doesn't mean you're a master or even an expert it just means you're a serious beginner, but then they make it so hard to get that you practically have to be a master to get it. Sounds very contradictory to me.

It all depends on the style or system and your instructor. Some clubs give you a B.B. in under 2 years, in this case I would assume you really need 2+ more years of training to be at the B.B. level that is expected. This is my experience as an Instructor of several Styles, not a fact.

American Kenpo for example, you would be lucky to get your B.B. in 6+ years if your instructor is very professional. It isn't always the belt, it's the time you spent training.

My experience in the 2 styles I have trained in took me 3 hours a day 3 days a week for 6+ years to get to the level I would allow myself to wear a B.B. in traditional Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.

That's just me, I'm very strict with myself. I trained 5 days a week for 8 years until I felt I was worthy of a letting myself test for my B.B. in Ed Parker American Kenpo. And many years also in T.K.D., Akido, Hapkido, etc. I enjoy all styles and all styles have something to teach us.

If you want to fool yourself and others by wearing a B.B. with only a year or so of training that's your decision, but for your pride and safety make sure you don't get called out to use it because more than likely you will not hold up to a real B.B.

Now exceptions do exist, a natural born athlete could train 6 days a week 3+ hours a day and be great within a year. And if is also a boxer/street fighter he would be a true opponent.
You just don't know what others know, be careful.

Thank you. Ron H.

 

[geezer]

Tez is like the parent of Martial Talk. lol

Also, she's like our English teacher. Just in the last two posts of hers I saw today, I came across the words acrimonious and specious ...the kinda words you don't hear often after you leave school ...unless you read. But who does that anymore?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Also, she's like our English teacher. Just in the last two posts of hers I saw today, I came across the words acrimonious and specious ...the kinda words you don't hear often after you leave school ...unless you read. But who does that anymore?

ha ha ha. that is too funny because I was reading on my phone and I had to do a double take. I thought my vision went blurry and I was reading it wrong lol. I only read the internet. Not sure if that counts as reading.



But I do like how Tez pops in out of the blue. She kind of pops in and shanks everyone and vanishes.

 

[Tez3]

ha ha ha. that is too funny because I was reading on my phone and I had to do a double take. I thought my vision went blurry and I was reading it wrong lol. I only read the internet. Not sure if that counts as reading.



But I do like how Tez pops in out of the blue. She kind of pops in and shanks everyone and vanishes.

Sadly I can only pop in now and again due to circumstances, I'm looking after my grumpy husband and my even grumpier 95 year old dad. so my visits are short and concise these days. Thank goodness many mutter. I'm also fighting Bell's Palsy which must be one of the most annoying, painful and disgusting conditions ever.
I won't lose touch though, you don't get rid of me that easy, love you all.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sadly I can only pop in now and again due to circumstances, I'm looking after my grumpy husband and my even grumpier 95 year old dad. so my visits are short and concise these days. Thank goodness many mutter. I'm also fighting Bell's Palsy which must be one of the most annoying, painful and disgusting conditions ever.
I won't lose touch though, you don't get rid of me that easy, love you all.

I'm always glad to see you in the discussions.

 

[Steve]

Sadly I can only pop in now and again due to circumstances, I'm looking after my grumpy husband and my even grumpier 95 year old dad. so my visits are short and concise these days. Thank goodness many mutter. I'm also fighting Bell's Palsy which must be one of the most annoying, painful and disgusting conditions ever.
I won't lose touch though, you don't get rid of me that easy, love you all.

Bells Palsy sucks. A close friend had that and while it was crappy, he eventually recovered completely. I hope you do the same.

 

[PhotonGuy]

And then you'll be met with a passive-aggressive response, such as "You can have this belt for $10." My point was to find ways around that.

If an instructor offered to sell me a belt for $10 (or any amount of money) without earning it by developing proper skill, I would leave his dojo immediately.

The point was that Mr. Miyagi gave an infantilizing response that didn't answer Danny's question, which is also what Unel did. Again, anyone who has watched the movie should know better.

So are you saying Mr. Miyagi could've given a better answer?

 

[PhotonGuy]

What do you think the real stuff is?

Depends on the art.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You really ought to provide a better answer.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Double down. Buy the black belt. Start training with it. They won't mind because a black belt is just a symbol anyway.

See if they are true to their convictions.

Well I wouldn't be training at a dojo where they offer to sell me a black belt on my first day, not unless the black belt is their first starting belt, and yes such styles do exist where you start with a black belt.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think this example in particular depends entirely on the style and the school. In TKD Kukkiwon and ITF say the whole black belt is a beginner thing, but in early books circa 1959-1961 black belt in TKD was referenced as a "high level of expertise". In bjj a black belt is an expert and is closer to what is expected of 4th dan in TKD and some karate. Kyokushin black belts are high level fighters but not necessarily masters of their art. Not all black belts are equal and that is okay as long as the standard is made clear and is kept consistent.

I don't necessarily think it's a contradiction as much as things aren't so black and white, its all a weird flowing shade of gray. A good example; beginners are always taught to keep their guard up when doing punching drills, but a lot of high level professional fighters keep their guard down. Are the pros wrong? No, they just understand that there are situations where it's okay to have a lower guard. Advanced techniques are just mistakes made on purpose and everything is situational.

You. make some good points, however in the grand scheme of things the rank of first degree black belt is a relatively low rank. From what I've seen in many styles of martial arts that use ranking systems, there are usually around 10 dan levels with first degree black belt being 1st dan, which means there's nine ranks above it.

You mention BJJ, yes in BJJ the black belt isn't given out lightly and in fact in many cases a purple belt in BJJ is sometimes said to be equivalent to a black belt in many other styles in terms of the time and skill it takes to get it. However, wearing a black belt in BJJ doesn't mean you hold the highest rank and in fact it's not even the highest color. The highest color in BJJ is red, the highest belt they've got is the red belt which is above the black belt.