Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[Mider]

I would say they have reached a level of proficiency where they can teach a skill to someone else. But that is a Long way from mastery.

I don’t think I’m going to get into an endless debate about master, ty

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would say they have reached a level of proficiency where they can teach a skill to someone else. But that is a Long way from mastery.

"Mastery" is pretty vague. I've never met anyone who wasn't arrogant who also claimed mastery using that term. But someone can be said to have "mastered the basics", which doesn't usually mean they have an unusually high level of competency in those basics, but that they can put them to use without much trouble. If we use that phrase to apply to black belt rank in general, I think it's pretty common that black belts have some mastery.

And, of course, if that moderate level of competence can be referred to with "mastery", so can the entire range upward from it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

someone can be said to have "mastered the basics", which doesn't usually mean they have an unusually high level

It's all about how one sees their relative place in the wider scheme of things, which could be delusional. This is how I see it.

I didn't "master" the basics until 3rd degree black.
2nd degree, expert
1st degree, very competent
Brown belt, competent
Green, can throw a punch and not hit oneself in the nuts.

 

[bluepanther]

Green, can throw a punch and not hit oneself in the nuts.

Being a white belt must be god awful at your school.

 

[HighKick]

"Mastery" is pretty vague. I've never met anyone who wasn't arrogant who also claimed mastery using that term. But someone can be said to have "mastered the basics", which doesn't usually mean they have an unusually high level of competency in those basics, but that they can put them to use without much trouble. If we use that phrase to apply to black belt rank in general, I think it's pretty common that black belts have some mastery.

And, of course, if that moderate level of competence can be referred to with "mastery", so can the entire range upward from it.

Mastery synonyms:
Proficiency, ability, capability, knowledge, understanding, comprehension, familiarity, command, grasp, grip, skill, expertise, command, superiority, domination, supremacy, and more.

Clearly, there is a rather broad inference with the term, and a Lot of latitude in its use.
I think 'Mastery' in the arts goes well beyond a 1st Dan black belt in most styles. The exception is the styles that take 5 plus years to attain 1st Dan. All things being equal (training hours, intensity, etc...) it seems safe to assume there is a higher degree of "insert synonym" in those styles.

While it is an often-used phrase, 'mastering the basics' is a bit contradictory to me, although it does fit within the synonyms.

 

[BaehrTKD]

Still going on and on and on and on and on about your obsession with belt ranks, I see.
View attachment 29889

This is so relevant and ironic right now!!!

 

[HighKick]

This is so relevant and ironic right now!!!

Bro, let it go!

 

[Fungus]

"Mastery" is pretty vague. I've never met anyone who wasn't arrogant who also claimed mastery using that term.

Yes, I think in most fields, even outside MA, the level of expertise usually comes with correspondingly higher level of humility. I don't anyone would refer to themself as a master. It's probably what your students may refer to you as. It's the saying that the more you learn, the more you realize how little you really know.

In our club, the shihans are very humble, much more so than mid ranks. Their appearance is everything else than what one would expect from a cocky fighter.

Historical note, Masutatsu Oyama, Founder of Kyokushin Karate, has in one of his mottos ...

"The Martial Way begins with one thousand days and is mastered after ten thousand days of training."

So then thousand days, translates to a whopping ~27 years if you train every day. This is I think about how long our shihans trained since they started (5th dan more more), and then they likely didn't train every day of the week. I think of them them as the "masters" in our dojo, but for THEM, I think they would refer to higher ranked outside the club having 7th dan as their masters they visit to develop themselves.

 

[HighKick]

"Mastery" is pretty vague. I've never met anyone who wasn't arrogant who also claimed mastery using that term. But someone can be said to have "mastered the basics", which doesn't usually mean they have an unusually high level of competency in those basics, but that they can put them to use without much trouble. If we use that phrase to apply to black belt rank in general, I think it's pretty common that black belts have some mastery.

And, of course, if that moderate level of competence can be referred to with "mastery", so can the entire range upward from it.

I also thought of another exception; in the trades, 'Master' is an often used and respected term. Master electrician, plumber, pipe fitter, etc. is a common tile. It requires a minimum of 7-years (4 in some areas) working under another Journeyman, plus a number of years leading up to starting the program.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Mastery synonyms:
Proficiency, ability, capability, knowledge, understanding, comprehension, familiarity, command, grasp, grip, skill, expertise, command, superiority, domination, supremacy, and more.

Clearly, there is a rather broad inference with the term, and a Lot of latitude in its use.
I think 'Mastery' in the arts goes well beyond a 1st Dan black belt in most styles. The exception is the styles that take 5 plus years to attain 1st Dan. All things being equal (training hours, intensity, etc...) it seems safe to assume there is a higher degree of "insert synonym" in those styles.

While it is an often-used phrase, 'mastering the basics' is a bit contradictory to me, although it does fit within the synonyms.

I see no contradiction in “mastering the basics”, unless we exclude several of the synonyms you listed (familiarity, comprehension, grasp, etc.). Someone who has a grasp of the fundamentals of a style (but not necessarily a superior level of ability) would match the meaning of the phrase.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I see no contradiction in “mastering the basics”, unless we exclude several of the synonyms you listed (familiarity, comprehension, grasp, etc.). Someone who has a grasp of the fundamentals of a style (but not necessarily a superior level of ability) would match the meaning of the phrase.

Talking about me again eh? And on Xmas no less…

 

[Instructor]

I watch 10 year old videos of me teaching techniques and I always think, man I do that technique and teach it so much better now than I did then. I wonder what the next ten years will bring? For me it's really a continuum, the more I do, the more I teach, the more I learn. My students benefit and I benefit.

I guess what I mean to say is if your teacher or coach is giving you a serviceable technique and you are learning it then everything is okay. Will your teacher and you one day be able to do the technique better, probably. I learned some of my favorite techniques from people who had less than three years of training under their belts and I've learned some amazing things from folks with decades of experience. Either way I'm still learning.

 

[bluepanther]

I learned some of my favorite techniques from people who had less than three years of training under their belts and I've learned some amazing things from folks with decades of experience

This^^

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Having a 1st degree Black doesn't mean your a Master you have to know your Art and what you are doing and to be a master you have to memorized every thing that you learn from your Karate class and its take a lot of practice and sweat for you to be a Master and you have to have like 30 years or so of karate well be it took me 11 years to take my karate black belt I'm a 1st brown right know soon to be black

Plus in my Kenpo system we have 24 techniques in each belt from orange to 2nd brown then we we rich 1st brown we have to do our orange belt extension and the black belt you have to do the purpple belt extention

 

[Hot Lunch]

I also thought of another exception; in the trades, 'Master' is an often used and respected term. Master electrician, plumber, pipe fitter, etc. is a common tile. It requires a minimum of 7-years (4 in some areas) working under another Journeyman, plus a number of years leading up to starting the program.

Something like this?

Brown belt = journeyman
Technical dan grades = craftsman
Honorary dan grades = master

 

[Hot Lunch]

Having a 1st degree Black doesn't mean your a Master you have to know your Art and what you are doing and to be a master you have to memorized every thing that you learn from your Karate class and its take a lot of practice and sweat for you to be a Master and you have to have like 30 years or so of karate well be it took me 11 years to take my karate black belt I'm a 1st brown right know soon to be black

Plus in my Kenpo system we have 24 techniques in each belt from orange to 2nd brown then we we rich 1st brown we have to do our orange belt extension and the black belt you have to do the purpple belt extention

I'm very doubtful that most people living in a modern Western democracy would ever call anyone "master."

The fact that there's so many comments here stating "Just because (insert achievement here), doesn't mean you're a master" shows how reluctant we are to call anyone that. And even if they check all the boxes that we claim must be checked, we're not going to call them that anyway.

 

[Steve]

Something like this?

Brown belt = journeyman
Technical dan grades = craftsman
Honorary dan grades = master

journey level or master of what exactly?

 

[Oily Dragon]

I'm very doubtful that most people living in a modern Western democracy would ever call anyone "master."

Have you not read Fifty Shades of Grey?

People sign up for it. Using legal contracts.

 

[Hot Lunch]

journey level or master of what exactly?

I was asking a question myself.

I think it would be difficult, at least the way I'm looking at it, to equate trade titles to martial arts ranks.

Journeymen are supposed to have working competency, but still require supervision. Masters do not require supervision.

Titles in that context would run contrary to shoshin, since we're all supposed to still be learning.

 

[HighKick]

Something like this?

Brown belt = journeyman
Technical dan grades = craftsman
Honorary dan grades = master

Sounds pretty good, but I may not put Journeyman at brown/red since it is a fairly short-term stop on the belt progression.
If we were to define 1st Dan as the level where a person knows the majority of a curriculum or technical material, that is where I would start Journeymen.