Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[PhotonGuy]

I don't see the contradiction, if we don't get tied up in the vocabulary. The belt, itself (and even the rank) aren't what matter. It's the effort, discipline, and work that matter. So we do the things that matter, and the belt/rank is just a result. If we make a belt/rank hard to acquire, we're pushing the stuff that matters, and using the belt as a symbol they did it.

Well if you ask me it's the skill that matters and skill would be a result of the effort, discipline, and work. The. belt/rank is proof that you've met your instructor's skill standards, the instructor who you get it under.

And, yes, there's an inherent contradiction, but it's minor. I cherish the achievement of my BB rank. I don't really care about the rank, except as an indicator of what I did. I never really cared what rank I was along the way, except what it let me do. The curriculum was mostly gated at ranks, some classes were available only once you'd passed a given rank (so you'd have the ability and curriculum needed to participate), and those who'd proven their ability (by testing and ranking) had the opportunity to do things like teach. The interesting classes, advanced learning, and opportunity to help others was what mattered - the belt/rank was just a means to those things.

The bottom line is, if you're going to be strict about belts and rank than belts and rank mean a bit more than squat, at least at your dojo.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If there's a rule stating that you have to be of a certain rank to do a particular thing, then the rank means something. Especially if people who would otherwise be qualified are disqualified on the basis of rank.

Yes that is often true. Much of the time you have to be of a certain rank in order to learn certain material but what Im trying to say is that if to be of a certain rank there are certain qualifications you have to meet (skill qualifications, ect.) that means rank means something.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Rank doesn't matter.
Now. Now that I am older and not a kyu rank. When I was a colour rank it mattered alot like it would most people I believe. Rank not mattering is something Yudansha say in my experience, me included.

Just my opinion

If you believe in that philosophy, that rank doesn't matter, than it stands to reason that if you were to run a dojo you would just hand out rank and belts like candy, regardless of the rank or belt color.

My students are not held back doing anything by their rank. However they are tested and don't get rank unless they can demonstrate a skill set. In our school that extends all the way to Rokudan.

So if students don't get rank unless they can demonstrate a skill set that means that rank does matter, to some extent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well if you ask me it's the skill that matters and skill would be a result of the effort, discipline, and work. The. belt/rank is proof that you've met your instructor's skill standards, the instructor who you get it under.

The bottom line is, if you're going to be strict about belts and rank than belts and rank mean a bit more than squat, at least at your dojo.

I can see your point. It's a philosophical difference, I think. My students never worried about their rank. They focused on learning. I enjoyed every rank I managed to achieve, and treasured the accomplishment. You could take that rank away, and I'd still have the accomplishment. That's what the "rank doesn't matter" is really about. I think that's what @Buka is getting at, too.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Contradictions In The Martial Arts​

Teacher A: To be a good MA student, you should train on heavy bag every day.
Teacher B: You should not train on heavy bag. When you have developed enough punching power, you may hurt someone and go to jail for it.

When you have 2 teachers who give you contradict opinions, who are you going to listen to?

 

[HighKick]

Yes that is often true. Much of the time you have to be of a certain rank in order to learn certain material but what Im trying to say is that if to be of a certain rank there are certain qualifications you have to meet (skill qualifications, ect.) that means rank means something.

I would say that is a consistent standard across all styles. What varies is how well a person can do a given technique relative to their rank.
For example, a jump spinning kick (your kick choice) is usually considered advanced at most schools who teach them. Some schools do not introduce the kick until a certain belt grade, some schools introduce them on or near day one of training. But the person who started learning the kick day one will not be evaluated on the kick until a certain amount of time in training, usually indicated by X number of promotions and a new belt color. They will be corrected and taught along the way, but not 'scored' on the kick.
So, at the end of the day, it is not the belt color that it important. It is how well the technique is performed.
As a general rule, it is easier on the school and instructor to compartmentalize the teaching of techniques, usually segregated by belts. This is universally done in some form or fashion.
But it can hamstring people who are exceptional and can progress at a faster rate than the average person. I have seen white belts who could grasp doing a jump spinning kick as well as any black belt on their first day learning the kick. And I have seen black belts who still need to work on their front stance.
I came up in more of the "throw all the material at them and let them figure it out" mode of teaching. It created a massive amount of information overload, but also did a very good job of motivating me to figure everything out. Some of this was on me because I was always asking for more.
I guess you can compare it to being spoon-fed versus getting the whole plate of food.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would say that is a consistent standard across all styles. What varies is how well a person can do a given technique relative to their rank.
For example, a jump spinning kick (your kick choice) is usually considered advanced at most schools who teach them. Some schools do not introduce the kick until a certain belt grade, some schools introduce them on or near day one of training. But the person who started learning the kick day one will not be evaluated on the kick until a certain amount of time in training, usually indicated by X number of promotions and a new belt color. They will be corrected and taught along the way, but not 'scored' on the kick.
So, at the end of the day, it is not the belt color that it important. It is how well the technique is performed.
As a general rule, it is easier on the school and instructor to compartmentalize the teaching of techniques, usually segregated by belts. This is universally done in some form or fashion.
But it can hamstring people who are exceptional and can progress at a faster rate than the average person. I have seen white belts who could grasp doing a jump spinning kick as well as any black belt on their first day learning the kick. And I have seen black belts who still need to work on their front stance.
I came up in more of the "throw all the material at them and let them figure it out" mode of teaching. It created a massive amount of information overload, but also did a very good job of motivating me to figure everything out. Some of this was on me because I was always asking for more.
I guess you can compare it to being spoon-fed versus getting the whole plate of food.

Personally, I favor segmentation of the curriculum with guidelines (rather than strict rules). With my own curriculum, there was technically a division of what "belonged" at each rank, as a holdover from the association I'd been in (so students would be able to integrate with mainline schools if they moved). But for me it was just a guideline. If a question came up that was best answered with a 3rd-set technique, I'd cover that - even if nobody in the room was at that rank yet. If a student could handle a technique that was beyond their rank, I'd teach that technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you believe in that philosophy, that rank doesn't matter, than it stands to reason that if you were to run a dojo you would just hand out rank and belts like candy, regardless of the rank or belt color.

Not true. If I knew more karate than I do now, I would probably just teach it like I do with Kung Fu. In Kung Fu there is no skill rank. There is only Younger brother, sister, and older brother, sister. Students would use honorific based on who was there at the school first. The reason I say this is because often people get caught up in the belt ranksing and put more value on that than in the skill.

The only real joy that students got when I was teaching was the joy that they can now do something that they originally thought would be too difficult, and the joy of learning a new form and experiencing that same accomplishment again. My old school was successful this way. I would probably keep the same way.

If I were to do belt rank to keep up with the tradition of karate then I would keep the student's belt rank a secret and would only give them their belt when they decide to leave the school. It would be like a parting gift. Thanks for being a student at this school. You acheived this rank. I wish you well in the future. I would do this ONLY BECAUSE I would want my student to know where they fit in comparison to other schools in the system. I would want them to be able to answer the question " What belt are you?" But they wouldn't know that until their last day at the school or if they reach the level where they are now able to teach.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Contradictions In The Martial Arts​

Teacher A: To be a good MA student, you should train on heavy bag every day.
Teacher B: You should not train on heavy bag. When you have developed enough punching power, you may hurt someone and go to jail for it.

When you have 2 teachers who give you contradict opinions, who are you going to listen to?

ha ha ha.. I would listen to both. Hit the heavy bag because it gives me enought power to hurt someone as verified by the second teacher. So both agree on that. The I would do thing to make sure that I don't go to jail lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

ha ha ha.. I would listen to both. Hit the heavy bag because it gives me enought power to hurt someone as verified by the second teacher. So both agree on that. The I would do thing to make sure that I don't go to jail lol

According to my logic, anybody who trains "iron palm" should be thrown in jail. "Iron palm" has no other usage besides hurting people.

 

[JowGaWolf]

According to my logic, anybody who trains "iron palm" should be thrown in jail. "Iron palm" has no other usage besides hurting people.

I don't think Iron Palm is thst dangerous. A person would still need fighting skills. Most people who have Iron Palm just break dtuff and not people.

Having a hard fist is no great advantage in terms of hurting others. The biggest advantage is that it takes more to damage the hand. Ther irony is thst there is a greater risk of damaging the hand in an attempt to develop an iron hand.

 

[Fungus]

people get caught up in the belt ranksing and put more value on that than in the skill.

I noticed a practical huge difference between skills and ranks, especially in the lower ranks, when people have different background when starting in a specific style. Ie. even if you in theory have a black belt in another style, you still have to go through the grading procedures of a new style.

I was first impressed by a white belt as we sparred, his kicking and punching techqniues, but later i fond out he has been doing thai boxing for years before switching to kyokushin. We also have converts from tae kwon do and shotokan, that have obvious skills far beyond their style rank. So I learned not to underestimate someone, especially in fighting, beacuse of a low rank in one system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I noticed a practical huge difference between skills and ranks, especially in the lower ranks, when people have different background when starting in a specific style. Ie. even if you in theory have a black belt in another style, you still have to go through the grading procedures of a new style.

I was first impressed by a white belt as we sparred, his kicking and punching techqniues, but later i fond out he has been doing thai boxing for years before switching to kyokushin. We also have converts from tae kwon do and shotokan, that have obvious skills far beyond their style rank. So I learned not to underestimate someone, especially in fighting, beacuse of a low rank in one system.

I've had students who were my equal at sparring, because they came from a background where sparring was more common and their prior art was less esoteric. I've definitely had students who were better kickers than me.

 

[Bujingodai]

If you believe in that philosophy, that rank doesn't matter, than it stands to reason that if you were to run a dojo you would just hand out rank and belts like candy, regardless of the rank or belt color.

So if students don't get rank unless they can demonstrate a skill set that means that rank does matter, to some extent.

No I do believe rank matters, as an indicator. I am saying that when someone says rank doesn't matter it is easy when you have passed into Yudansha to say that.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Contradictions In The Martial Arts​

Teacher A: To be a good MA student, you should train on heavy bag every day.
Teacher B: You should not train on heavy bag. When you have developed enough punching power, you may hurt someone and go to jail for it.

When you have 2 teachers who give you contradict opinions, who are you going to listen to?

My response to teacher B would be to simply not attack innocent people, that can really help with keeping you out of jail.

 

[Hot Lunch]

No I do believe rank matters, as an indicator. I am saying that when someone says rank doesn't matter it is easy when you have passed into Yudansha to say that.

This is exactly why I'll never tell anyone who wants a particular thing that the thing doesn't matter. I don't get to decide that for other people.

Imagine a trans woman reacting to your rejection by telling you that "my anatomy doesn't matter," and then goes on to attack your character. The second anyone thinks they can decide whether or not that should matter to me, things will escalate REAL quick.

Why should martial arts rank or anything else that anyone wants be different?

(Apologies if I'm preaching to the choir)

Contradictions In The Martial Arts​

Teacher A: To be a good MA student, you should train on heavy bag every day.
Teacher B: You should not train on heavy bag. When you have developed enough punching power, you may hurt someone and go to jail for it.

When you have 2 teachers who give you contradict opinions, who are you going to listen to?

Teacher A. Easy. If a teacher feels that you're going to be irresponsible with highly effective techniques, then they shouldn't be allowing you to train there.

 

[HighKick]

Contradictions In The Martial Arts​

Teacher A: To be a good MA student, you should train on heavy bag every day.
Teacher B: You should not train on heavy bag. When you have developed enough punching power, you may hurt someone and go to jail for it.

When you have 2 teachers who give you contradict opinions, who are you going to listen to?

Qn their own merit, and the limited amount of explanation/information, both teachers are wrong. Isn't most all martial arts about control?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Who says that? I’ve heard it just means you’re kinda starting over and ready to learn more

I agree with you on that. First degree black belt does mean you're just a serious beginner and if you look at all the dan ranks it is a rather low rank. But the fact of the matter is, we're all beginners in the sense that there's always more to learn. It doesn't matter what your rank is or how much experience you've got, there's always something new out there.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I get what you’re saying, and it sounds reasonable. But Having had three kids through school, I can tell you with absolute certainty that every teacher makes it very, very clear what you need to do for an A. They aren’t coy at all about it. They also make it clear to any parent who cares to attend the orientation.

Then by the same token a sensei should make it clear what a student needs to do to get a black belt in his dojo, or whatever rank the student is striving for. And a student shouldn't be afraid to ask.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Qn their own merit, and the limited amount of explanation/information, both teachers are wrong. Isn't most all martial arts about control?

Martial arts is about control although it's mostly about having control over yourself. And you also learn how to control your opponent, from my experience.